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Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3699
Ca.

 Re:

Sin and death are gone to those that are in Christ Jesus. That means the curse of the Law, that is the conviction of sin no longer applies. That Christ and the Spirit of the Law which is much deeper than Law as we know it.
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Quote:
What?! The conviction of sin no longer applies? This is really getting to be something here and the use of law is so distorted and applied so randomly as to make this all but one of confusion. None of these things apply to establishment, to fixed order, to genders even before the fall.

Then why?

Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit

The skill to separate the Spirit from the flesh does not come from man but by God through Christ Jesus that is birthed in the believer.

Walk in the flesh and sin is present, "but after the Spirit, no condemnation".

Christ in you is the Hope of Glory, it is the you that Christ is in, that making you the Glory of Christ, and Christ the righteousness of God in you. We can seek the Law and use it as much as we want, but that is not the life that God intended for those that are in Christ and seek the Father knowing that they are His son's and daughters.

This is repetition but I think it brings the law where it belongs, being that which convicts of sin and makes us sinners. The only Law we live by is the Law of Love that Christ Gave us in nailing the rest to the Cross.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Jam 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

Do we walk in transgression and in the Spirit at the same time? Impossible.

Because it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me that we walk in the Spirit.

Galatians 2:16-18 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

In Christ, with the Spirit of Christ in us or we are none of His.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

What is the Glory that should follow, the life we now live and the Christ that is in us.

Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

And you if it be that Christ is in you. How does this happen? Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever

When does this happen? John 3:14-16 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Believe: 1 John 5:9-13 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/6/19 2:03Profile









 Re: Are Women Totally Forbidden to Teach?


Hi Jeanette,

I thought your post on p19 was very thoughtful and insightful of how exquisitely many women find themselves questioning their motives when seeking God about obedience to men - even Christian men. As has been said, we will have to account for ourselves to God, although this plea also applies:

Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: [u]for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account[/u], that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that [i]is[/i] unprofitable for you.


I'm realising there is a world of difference between honestly raising questions and concerns with one's local church leadership (or husband), and being actively awkward in a fleshly show of rebellion or non-co-operation. It behoves both brothers and sisters to know the difference.






 2007/6/19 9:48









 Re: Are Women Totally Forbidden to Teach?


Hi Mike,

Yesterday after you posted all that commentary, it occurred to me that it [i]is you[/i] who is grappling with the issues here. I am glad of this; especially that the discussion is with Phillip who has been married five times, and four [EDIT] maybe more [end] mature Christian women (who have been deeply exercised on this topic both previously and now, for many and varying reasons), (at this stage of the thread).


To answer Jordan's original question, I don't believe there is a problem with women teaching men in Bible college. Not because the [i]Church of England[/i] employed a woman Dean of their main training college in England, but because I have heard her speak, and how she mentioned her calling from God Himself when she was fifteen.

This woman chose to follow God's call on her life. She has never been married, and single-heartedly and single-mindedly, she studied both Greek and Hebrew to qualify her through two university degrees, for what [u]God[/u] wanted her to do. She knows the word of God, and she also is baptised in the Spirit. Her exposition of the simplicity that is in Christ, from Galatians, has been a profound influence on me.

[i]Of course[/i], that she (Dr Christina Baxter) is sound, [u]does not vouch for other women in teaching positions[/u], but I would suggest all teachers of God's word are primarily responsible [i]to Him[/i], and must sift through what they are 'taught' by 'men' (or other women), honestly, using their God-given powers of truth-recognition and discernment.


I would add, that even in church, with the best intention of [i]receiving[/i] what is preached, it can be necessary to spit out the pips, (as it were), after accepting what has been offered as fruit.


contd.

 2007/6/19 9:53









 Re: Are Women Totally Forbidden to Teach?


Hi Mike,

I would answer part of your last post (the end of it) in a little more detail.... But please, I especially don't want you to think I'm implying you should infer you are in error. I [i]do recognise[/i] that you are working very hard on this thread, and I trust you; I know you well enough to believe you are stewing through it for God's reasons as much as your own (whatever either may be).

Let me state again my own stance on this in terms I have not used yet in this thread. I believe this is simple. God requires obedience. It is not optional. We see this in how He dealt with Adam and Eve. However, He being God the Creator and us being the created, man would never have been able to second-guess the outworking of God's mind. However, in the promised Seed to Eve, He did reveal the eternal answer right back at the beginning. He applied the cure right on the wound when it was fresh.

When the centurion recognised Jesus' authority (I struggled for years to understand this historical event and what Jesus had meant in His words then.) he defined a spiritual principle with great simplicity, namely, that to those who obey, responsibility (and 'authority') is given.

As I have said elsewhere, this is what I look for now, in all saints - that submission to God's call, which is backed up by His blessing.

The hallmark of God's commission, is (humanly unaccountable) evidence.

Hebrews 2
3 ... great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [it, or Him];
4 [u]God also bearing witness[/u], both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to His own will?


You said:
'Don't read I am having a bad day, or what's got him all up in arms or whatever sideway's notion must be attributed and 'balanced' and ... there is a place for all that but I am not particularly angry as just ... baffled! Perhaps I am in error to just not leave well enough alone.

[i]If [u]man[/u] had not sinned, he would always have ruled with wisdom and love; and, if the [u]woman[/u] had not sinned, she would always have obeyed with humility and meekness; and [b]then the dominion would have been no grievance[/b]: but our own sin and folly make our yoke heavy. If Eve had not eaten forbidden fruit herself, and tempted her husband to eat it, b][she would never have complained of her subjection[/b]; [u]therefore[/u] it ought never to be complained of, though harsh; but sin must be complained of, that made it so.[/i]

Since there is such little complaining going on here and hardly any defending, I must surely be
in error ...

:-(

[i]Rebels![/i]'


What you are missing, here, is the faulty logic :-o in this part of the sentence 'then DOMINION... '.

Why faulty logic? Because 'dominion' was never part of God's original set-up.

Colossians 1:19
For it pleased [i]the Father[/i] that in him should all fulness dwell;

Genesis 2
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.


More learned by far than I, have commented that God formed Eve from one of Adam's ribs - not from his head, nor from his feet, but from his side - that she should be [u]equal[/u] with him. This resonates with Oswald Chambers' comment that 'submission is possible only between equals'.


However, [u]you are right[/u] that we still live with the consequences of the Fall, in the dying of creation. However, isn't this what Paul addresses directly in Romans 8:11 - 27?


Within the fidelity of loving marriage, there is great safety for both man and woman, if they both become / are / do what should be outworked.

But isn't it interesting that you are really struggling with the issues which arise / have arisen for women - who are not married, or who are divorced, or who are married to those not fulfilling entirely the role (Christ not being their head) - who have been thrown towards Christ as the only Head to whom safely to submit in spiritual terms?

Have you wondered why you are willing to suggest we (those discussing here) are [i]usurping[/i] the place of men? What men? Christians? Males? Against what (prior?) mental template are you comparing us? Truly, is it [i]only[/i] scripture you're using as your guide?


And, isn't Christ the [u]most[/u] [i]male[/i] Man who ever lived?

 2007/6/19 10:10









 Re: Stumblings over "meekness".

I couldn't help but notice on the Forum in general, that there are different "views" of "Meekness". From both the ladies and the men.

Last night I read old posts and saw where men had rebuked other male posters for their lack of meekness. :-(

Normally, it depends on "the subject matter", that provokes this response I noticed.

It was more of a 'tactic' then anything else.
When one doesn't like the topic being discussed, they attack or "correct" the poster's "presentation of the topic" - normally factoring meekness in one way or another, but reading these type threads enough, you see it is "the subject" that they don't want to 'hear' about, not the person's presentation of it.

If you bring up "judgment in our own country", the dander goes up and insults start to fly ... just for one topic ... or eschatology ... or prophecy, etc.. Those issues raise more dust than woman being used by The LORD or any other subjects discussed, by far I've noticed.

I've watched "the meekest of men" take on a whole different attitude toward those who post about those issues. Their "meekness" turns to requesting that the freedom of speech be taken from the one or ones who speak of these topics or go on with some dialectic about "we can't know these things", etc.. But basically it is one of the few subjects where they are actually saying "shut up" - in their 'meek' sort of way.
In the 'end', that will be the splitting point of the Entire "church"... not "woman".

The cry for 'meekness' suits this generation to a tee. It's convienent. And whenever one starts hurling it around, they immediately lose their own meekness ... though their definition is way off on what true Biblical meekness is.
It's like demanding humility on a forum. How does one know that the other person isn't and by demanding it - they are really saying they themselves 'are' humble but you - stranger on my monitor, are not. It that gall or is it not ?


If we would just click on 2Ki 22:14 on e-sword or whichever - we'd see that this event was during Jeremiah's time, but there is nothing-nowhere that says that what these men did by asking the Lord through a woman was wrong and onto chpt 23 what Josiah did for Israel because of the word she gave from God.

When ordered by King Josiah to "inquire of The LORD" ~
2Ki 22:11 And it came to pass, when the king had heard the words of the book of the law, that he (Josiah) rent his clothes.
2Ki 22:12 And the king commanded Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam the son of Shaphan, and Achbor the son of Michaiah, and Shaphan the scribe, and Asahiah a servant of the king's, saying,
2Ki 22:13 Go ye, inquire of the LORD for me, and for the people, and for all Judah, concerning the words of this book that is found: for great is the wrath of the LORD that is kindled against us, because our fathers have not hearkened unto the words of this book, to do according unto all that which is written concerning us.
2Ki 22:14 So Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam, and Achbor, and Shaphan, and Asahiah, went unto Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college;) and they communed with her.

Can we say that what that she is about to answer is "meek" by today's definition ?

2Ki 22:15 And she said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Tell the man that sent you to me,
2Ki 22:16 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the words of the book which the king of Judah hath read:
2Ki 22:17 Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be kindled against this place, and shall not be quenched.

Based upon Huldah's words, Josiah will run his nation until his death.

2Ki 22:18 But to the king of Judah which sent you to inquire of the LORD, thus shall ye say to him, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, As touching the words which thou hast heard;
2Ki 22:19 Because thine heart was tender, and thou hast humbled thyself before the LORD, when thou heardest what I spoke against this place, and against the inhabitants thereof, that they should become a desolation and a curse, and hast rent thy clothes, and wept before me; I also have heard thee, saith the LORD.
2Ki 22:20 Behold therefore, I will gather thee unto thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered into thy grave in peace; and thine eyes shall not see all the evil which I will bring upon this place. And they brought the king word again.

On to Chpt. 23. All that Huldah had spoken and Josiah believed, changed the whole course of his life and how he ruled over Israel.

Has God changed His ways ?

But personally, I'm not convinced this is truly the issue here on this thread.
There is something more to this thread that I certainly do not understand, nor do I dare to try to put my finger on. It's confused quite a bit and has been sort of a diversion from much-much more serious present day issues.

 2007/6/19 12:56









 Re:

Quote:

dorcas wrote:

Hi Jeanette,

I thought your post on p19 was very thoughtful and insightful of how exquisitely many women find themselves questioning their motives when seeking God about obedience to men - even Christian men. As has been said, we will have to account for ourselves to God, although this plea also applies:

Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: [u]for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account[/u], that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that [i]is[/i] unprofitable for you.

I'm realising there is a world of difference between honestly raising questions and concerns with one's local church leadership (or husband), and being actively awkward in a fleshly show of rebellion or non-co-operation. It behoves both brothers and sisters to know the difference.

Thanks for this Linn, especially highlighting the difference above.

As well as by your comment,I'm really blessed that we understand one another - which isn't always the case :-D

Indeed I wasn't sure if [i]I[/i] understood what I was saying! I was reaching for something only dimly seen, but very important.

The whole issue of authority, as I said before, has to be settled in our hearts before the storms hit, or we won't be able to stand firm in the Lord.

To me that's the reason for this thread.

In Him

Jeannette

 2007/6/19 13:41









 Re:

Annie said:

Quote:
But personally, I'm not convinced this is truly the issue here on this thread.

There is something more to this thread that I certainly do not understand, nor do I dare to try to put my finger on. It's confused quite a bit and has been sort of a diversion from much-much more serious present day issues.

Not a diversion, I believe, but a [u]preparation[/u].

As in the comment I made above:
Quote:
The whole issue of authority, as I said before, has to be settled in our hearts before the storms hit, or we won't be able to stand firm in the Lord.

To me that's the reason for this thread.

In Him

Jeannette

 2007/6/19 13:47









 Re:

Bless GOD, now my heart can rest by your last two posts here.

Let's all quit roasting fellow sheep and DO see what the Spirit would say unto HIS OWN.


BLESS our GOD for His non-contradicting 'Spirit of Truth' ~ Amen & Amen.

 2007/6/19 13:59









 Re:

Quote:

dorcas wrote:

Hi Mike...

...please, I especially don't want you to think I'm implying you should infer you are in error. I [i]do recognise[/i] that you are working very hard on this thread, and I trust you; I know you well enough to believe you are stewing through it for God's reasons as much as your own (whatever either may be)...

Yes, there is something really profound happening - but I didn't "see" it until reading your words here! Thank you.

Mike, your struggles, and questionings, and ours, are part of something positive the Lord is doing among us on this thread! His purpose is wonderful and to the great gain of all.

Mike, let's allow Him have His way - in your heart and ours - and there will be such growth and blessing and maturing. The distress and frustration you have experienced during this discussion is for a purpose. Not, primarily, to press home your point and convince those of us who seem rebellious, but to do such a work of grace in all our hearts that we will be amazed!

Quote:
...God requires obedience. It is not optional. We see this in how He dealt with Adam and Eve...

YES! :-D Thank you again

Quote:
...When the centurion recognised Jesus' authority...he defined a spiritual principle with great simplicity, namely, that to those who obey, responsibility (and 'authority') is given.

YES!

We don't have to strive to express authority, nor feel cheated because we don't seem to be allowed it. If the Lord is giving authority in a particular situation we must move in that authority, whatever [u]anyone[/u] says. Or we "keep silence", and that silence is imbued with such authority that no-one will be able to gainsay it!

Quote:
As I have said elsewhere, this is what I look for now, in all saints - that submission to God's call, which is backed up by His blessing.

We need to know the difference between blessing, because the Lord blesses where He can - even sometimes if we aren't fully in His will - and the [u]true[/u] seal of His approval, when we are obeying Him. Which is what you meant here of course, but it could maybe be misunderstood, or seen as an excuse for disobedience.

Quote:
But isn't it interesting that you are really struggling with the issues which arise / have arisen for women - who are not married, or who are divorced, or who are married to those not fulfilling entirely the role (Christ not being their head) - who have been thrown towards Christ as the only Head to whom safely to submit in spiritual terms?

I'm single, but didn't realise that all the other ladies posting here were in that kind of position too. Not sure what difference it makes in a church situation though.

My rather odd position re the local church is that I can happily submit to the leaders as men of God whom I love and respect - even if disagreeing on certain things. Yet I can [u]in no way[/u] submit to the "false covering" of the Restoration movement with which the church is affiliated - even if these same dear brethren should insist on it!

Quote:
Have you wondered why you are willing to suggest we (those discussing here) are [i]usurping[/i] the place of men? What men? Christians? Males? Against what (prior?) mental template are you comparing us? Truly, is it [i]only[/i] scripture you're using as your guide?

Mmmm, the root reason, the root motive - whether our opinions or Bible interpretations are right or wrong - THAT is what the Lord is after, in all of us.

That's a question to take before the Lord.

I hope so much that you will, Mike, as we all must, if we haven't already.

I'm not saying this in the hope that you will soften your position (though that could well be one result), but ask you to come before Him and allow Him to speak to your heart - as you will have done so many times before. For you have a tender heart before God, and He is faithful.

Your understanding of Scripture is clear on the matter, and you will not move from that. Nor would I ask you to - that isn't the root issue at all. But what will He say to your [u]heart[/u]? I don't know that and it isn't my business, but I believe you will never be the same again!

And as moderator that will have far reaching results on the whole of SI, I believe!

Then we will all see what the Lord will do :-o :knockedout:

In Him

Jeannette

 2007/6/19 15:02









 Re:

Quote:

GrannieAnnie wrote:
Bless GOD, now my heart can rest by your last two posts here.

Let's all quit roasting fellow sheep and DO see what the Spirit would say unto HIS OWN.


BLESS our GOD for His non-contradicting 'Spirit of Truth' ~ Amen & Amen.

Sis Annie, you begin to remind me of a Rottweiler! Those dogs have such a reputaion for fierceness! But the first Rottweiler I ever met, (which happened to be female) in spite of her fierce appearance and massive jaws, nearly [i]licked[/i] me to death, she was so friendly! :lol:

Bless you, Annie!

Jeannette

 2007/6/19 15:10





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