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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Are Women Totally Forbidden to Teach?

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 Re:

Quote:
And Krispy, I'm allergic to acetominophen, regardless of the name. But my, you Southerner's do make it sound like it's a naughty thing to take!



You mean "Goodies"? See, thats what I meant... no one but a southerner or a NASCAR fan would know what that was! (It's powdered asprin, basically... just ask Richard Petty)

Works good to... which may be why they call it "Goodies".

When I was smoking pot back in high school if you carried it in a baggy it was a called a "goodie bag". Not the same thing... powdered asprin is a sight better for ya.

:-)

Wow... I'm really off topic, aint I? But it is more interesting than arguing with folks who cant just accept scripture at face value.

Krispy

 2007/6/12 16:34
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

You Marine guys are whimps. Tylenol? I like to chew raw aspirin. Gets to the bloodstream faster.

:-x

Brother Paul

p.s. Keep up the straight shooting, Steve. Your clean, honest posts encourage me. May the Lord continue to bless and grow you.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2007/6/12 16:41Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Last of the last

Quote:
Not sure what you mean here. "insinuation" against you? God forbid!!! Since being in SI I have grown to love and respect you too much in the Lord to make insinuations! Again I can't imagine why you should have thought it possible that I should...



Not in the least sister. I did mean very much my own self here and did not want it to be taken as an insinuation towards others about going on and on. With that I do believe I will gracefully bow out here momentarily. I think that whatever else might be said would only compound the situation.

Forrest,
Quote:
I don't intend for them to be trick questions or to necessarily use them in the arguments I may make. I want to know what I need not talk about in a fully reasoned study of authority in the church.

I feel as if what I am saying is not being heard. You may feel the same way. But I think it is valuable to continue the discussion.

Please tell me:



Well I do feel the same way to some extent and recognize the sort of unintentional or who knows perhaps intentional cherry picking that we can do in these discussions. [i]Not an accusation[/i]. It happens. I do it just as easily. I think I have failed largely to get across the main point that I am finding contrary to scripture and will leave off with the commentaries in a subsequent and last post instead, not to prove, not to buttress, not even knowing what they might have to say. If all this effort was or is causes some more thinking and searching the scriptures for their true intent and meaning at the source, than I am happy to dislodge from it. To be honest could hope for more but ... perhaps would further the thought to address what you have asked me here in these series of questions.

I did attempt them honestly but found a problem right from the get go because you are asking me what "I think" in large part and "I think" it is irrelevant what I think on those questions. It was difficult not to take them as somewhat baiting regardless of your intentions and I have no reason to believe ill will or the like.

Some of them were downright ... provocative to say the least, not offended but bemused at such foolish things being asked when you already well know the answer to them.

I will not partake in this because I do not wish you to be forming your responses off this questionnaire that may be proving something of my point anyway ...

If you want to know where "I am coming from" I will appeal one last time to Stephen Kaung's messages on authority, which to my recollection may not even speak to this matter directly. But they certainly express an understanding of what spiritual authority is and I think if we can grasp that we may well better be able to grasp this present issue.

To the commentaries.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/6/12 21:11Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Last of the last

Similar to 1Co 14:34, this needs it's own fuller context, all of 1 Corinthians, all of 1 Timothy. These are only the main verses in question.

1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

[b]1Ti 2:12 -
Nor to usurp authority[/b] - A woman should attempt nothing, either in public or private, that belongs to man as his peculiar function. This was prohibited by the Roman laws: In multis juris nostri articulis deterior est conditio foeminarum quam masculorun,; l. 9, Pap. Lib. 31, Quaest. Foeminoe ab omnibus officiis civilibus vel publicis remotae sunt; et ideo nec judicis esse possunt, nec magistratum gerere, nec postulare, nec pro alio invenire, nec procuratores existere; l. 2, de Reg. Juris. Ulp. Lib. i. Ad Sab. - Vid. Poth. Pand. Justin., vol. i. p. 13.

“In our laws the condition of women is, in many respects, worse than that of men. Women are precluded from all public offices; therefore they cannot be judges, nor execute the function of magistrates; they cannot sue, plead, nor act in any case, as proxies.” They were under many other disabilities, which may be seen in different places of the Pandects.

[b]But to be in silence[/b] - It was lawful for men in public assemblies to ask questions, or even interrupt the speaker when there was any matter in his speech which they did not understand; but this liberty was not granted to women. See the note on 1Co_14:34, 1Co_14:35 (note).

Adam Clarke

~~~~~~~~~~~

[b]1Ti 2:12 -
But I suffer not a woman to teach[/b] - see the notes on 1Co_14:34.

[b]Nor to usurp authority over the man[/b] - notes, 1Co_11:3.

Albert Barnes

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[b]1Ti 2:12 - But I suffer not a woman to teach[/b], They may teach in private, in their own houses and families; they are to be teachers of good things, Tit_2:3. They are to bring up their children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord; nor is the law or doctrine of a mother to be forsaken, any more than the instruction of a father; see Pro_1:8. Timothy, no doubt, received much advantage, from the private teachings and instructions of his mother Eunice, and grandmother Lois; but then women are not to teach in the church; for that is an act of power and authority, and supposes the persons that teach to be of a superior degree, and in a superior office, and to have superior abilities to those who are taught by them:

[b]nor to usurp authority over the man[/b]; as not in civil and political things, or in things relating to civil government; and in things domestic, or the affairs of the family; so not in things ecclesiastical, or what relate to the church and government of it; for one part of rule is to feed the church with knowledge and understanding; and for a woman to take upon her to do this, is to usurp an authority over the man: this therefore she ought not to do,

[b]but to be in silence[/b]; to sit and hear quietly and silently, and learn, and not teach, as in 1Ti_2:11.

John Gill

~~~~~~~~~

[b]1Ti 2:9-15[/b] -
I. Here is a charge, that women who profess the Christian religion should be modest, sober, silent, and submissive, as becomes their place. 1. They must be very modest in their apparel, not affecting gaudiness, gaiety, or costliness (you may read the vanity of a person's mind in the gaiety and gaudiness of his habit), because they have better ornaments with which they should [i]adorn themselves, with good works.[/i] Note, Good works are the best ornament; these are, in the sight of God, of great price. Those that profess godliness should, in their dress, as well as other things, act as becomes their profession; instead of laying out their money on fine clothes, they must lay it out in works of piety and charity, which are properly called good works. 2. Women must learn the principles of their religion, learn Christ, learn the scriptures; they must not think that their sex excuses them from that learning which is necessary to salvation. 3. They must be silent, submissive, and subject, and not usurp authority. The reason given is because [i]Adam was first formed, then Eve[/i] out of him, to denote her subordination to him and dependence upon him; and that she was made for him, to be a help-meet for him. And as she was last in the creation, which is one reason for her subjection, so she was first in the transgression, and that is another reason. Adam [i]was not deceived[/i], that is, not first; the serpent did not immediately set upon him, but the woman was first in the transgression (2Co_11:3), and it was part of the sentence, [i]Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee,[/i] Gen_3:16. But it is a word of comfort (1Ti_2:15) that those who continue in sobriety shall be [i]saved in child-bearing,[/i] or [i]with[/i] child-bearing - the Messiah, who was born of a woman, should break the serpent's head (Gen_3:15); or the sentence which they are under for sin shall be no bar to their acceptance with Christ, [i]if they continue in faith, and charity, and holiness, with sobriety.[/i]

II. Here observe, 1. The extensiveness of the rules of Christianity; they reach not only to men, but to women, not only to their persons, but also to their dress, which must be modest, like their sex; and to their outward deportment and behaviour, it must be in silence, with all subjection. 2. Women are to profess godliness as well as men; for they are baptized, and thereby stand engaged to exercise themselves to godliness; and, to their honour be it spoken, many of them were eminent professors of Christianity in the days of the apostles, as the book of Acts will inform us. 3. Women being more in danger of exceeding in their apparel, it was more necessary to caution them in this respect. 4. The best ornaments for professors of godliness are good works. 5. According to Paul, women must be learners, and are not allowed to be public teachers in the church; for teaching is an office of authority, and the woman must not usurp authority over the man, but is to be in silence. But, notwithstanding this prohibition, good women may and ought to teach their children at home the principles of religion. Timothy from a child had known the holy scriptures; and who should teach him but his mother and grandmother? 2Ti_3:15. Aquila and his wife Priscilla expounded unto Apollos the way of God more perfectly; but then they did it privately, for [i]they took him unto them[/i], Act_18:26. 6. Here are two very good reasons given for the man's authority over the woman, and her subjection to the man, 1Ti_2:13, 1Ti_2:14. Adam was first formed, then Eve; she was created for the man, and not the man for the woman (1Co_11:9); then she was deceived, and brought the man into the transgression. 7. Though the difficulties and dangers of childbearing are many and great, as they are part of the punishment inflicted on the sex for Eve's transgression, yet here is much for her support and encouragement: [i]Notwithstanding she shall be saved,[/i] etc. Though in sorrow, yet she shall bring forth, and be a living mother of living children; with this proviso, that they continue in faith, and charity, and holiness, with sobriety: and women, under the circumstance of child-bearing should by faith lay hold of this promise for their support in the needful time.

Matthew Henry

([i]Italics[/i], his own)



_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/6/12 21:41Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3699
Ca.

 Re:

1 Corinthians 12:1-18 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

Who is the Gifted One, the One that is in every born again body member? Is it not the Lord Jesus Christ Himself? Who administers these Gifts of God? Is it not he Holy Spirit teacher as He wills. We are not all gifted apostles or teachers etc. at the same time, but we can all be an apostle, teacher, etc. as the Holy Spirit distributes the gifts and God wills. It is the Giver not the gift or the receiver that is the builder of the Body of Christ for both man and woman.

1 Corinthians 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man (and woman) severally as he will.

All are one in Christ. 1 Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

"So also is Christ", that is the perfection of our salvation Christ is One and we are One in Him and the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Man and woman are baptized into one Spirit which is Christ and becomes the Body of Christ in one Body, and there is no difference in the Spirit of God in us. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:18-20 But now hath God set the members (man and woman) every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased Him. And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body. Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:23-25 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

This is beyond, "woman keep silent in the church".

Hebrews 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

The great High Priest of the Christian profession is the only perfect priest, Heb 7:11,19. The Jewish priests were all imperfect and sinful men. The sacrifices which they offered were imperfect, and could not give peace to the conscience. There was need of some better system, and they all looked forward to it. But in the Lord Jesus, and in his work, there is absolute perfection. What he did was complete, and his office needs no change.

As all that are His, we are also a kingdom of priests.

Hebrews 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

As man and woman we are consecrated for evermore in Christ Jesus.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/6/13 3:21Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
1 Corinthians 12:1-18 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

Who is the Gifted One, the One that is in every born again body member? Is it not the Lord Jesus Christ Himself? Who administers these Gifts of God? Is it not he Holy Spirit teacher as He wills. We are not all gifted apostles or teachers etc. at the same time, but we can all be an apostle, teacher, etc. as the Holy Spirit distributes the gifts and God wills. It is the Giver not the gift or the receiver that is the builder of the Body of Christ for both man and woman.

1 Corinthians 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man (and woman) severally as he will.

All are one in Christ. 1 Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

"So also is Christ", that is the perfection of our salvation Christ is One and we are One in Him and the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Man and woman are baptized into one Spirit which is Christ and becomes the Body of Christ in one Body, and there is no difference in the Spirit of God in us. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:18-20 But now hath God set the members (man and woman) every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased Him. And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body. Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:23-25 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

This is beyond, "woman keep silent in the church".

Hebrews 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

The great High Priest of the Christian profession is the only perfect priest, Heb 7:11,19. The Jewish priests were all imperfect and sinful men. The sacrifices which they offered were imperfect, and could not give peace to the conscience. There was need of some better system, and they all looked forward to it. But in the Lord Jesus, and in his work, there is absolute perfection. What he did was complete, and his office needs no change.

As all that are His, we are also a kingdom of priests.

Hebrews 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

As man and woman we are consecrated for evermore in Christ Jesus.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi Bro Phillip

It is the [u]outworking[/u] of these truths that we are wrestling with, and having such difficulty over, in this thread. To much of it I have no definite answer, except the scriptures are true - what you have brought AND what Mike and others have brought.

All I and any of us can do is to follow the Lord humbly in seeking to know His mind in day by day outworking of the truths of these Scriptures.

[u]ALL of them[/u]!

The personal key the Lod gave me, as said earlier, is to be sure that there is no area of rebellion against Him in my own heart.

Whatever the present day application and interpretation of "I suffer not a woman to teach...", if [i][u]that[/u][/i] issue is dealt with we will be in right relationship to Him and to every other brother or sister who is in the same place with Him.


In Him


Jeannette

 2007/6/13 7:26









 Re:

Quote:

GrannieAnnie wrote:
Not tylenol Krispy, you should know from being down yonder here in Nascar-ville that Goody powders are Faster. Even I've seen that commercial and know by personal experience. Just take TWO Extra-strength packs and down them with a cup of coffee (or 2) and you'll have no pain.
May lose your stomach and all, but you won't feel it. Ha.

Jeannette, it's just acetaminophen.

Never heard of that either, had to look it up. apparently it has similar uses to asprin buut very different chemically, and doesn't help with inflammation as asprin does. It's also less irritating to the stomach. Panadol has it - You ever heard of Panadol?

Quote:
~ I get the feeling that no one has had a chance to read 2 Kings 22 yet.
I didn't pull that one outta the air. :-D
There's a lot in that chpt and running most of the way on to chpt 23.

I'd like to discuss it if someone would give their take on it.

THANKS and Hello from Goody Powder country.
LOVE!

I did glance at it but no chance to study it yet - spent nearly all morning commenting on SI messages!

Will try to respond soon, as it is inmportant.

My this thread has gone on"

Although no-one has commented on my thread of yesterday yet, on being ready, and Isaiah 17.

Thanks sis Annie

Jeannette

 2007/6/13 7:34









 Re:

Mike... in your post where you quoted from those commentators (as opposed to regular 'taters... or tater tots) you forgot one thing:

We're much smarter and have more insight than those men did in their day.

** Note tongue planted firmly in cheek **

At least thats the impression I get from some folks... who are novices compared to these men.

Krispy

 2007/6/13 8:33
phoebe1
Member



Joined: 2007/6/13
Posts: 1


 Re:

I think you all might find the assemblies of God's official stance on this issue insightful. I see alot of the bias they refer to here against women in a number of your views. Please read slowly and carefully. Thank you.



You are here: Home > Beliefs > Position_Papers > Ministry: The Role of Women in Ministry (Official A/G Position Paper)
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The Role of Women in Ministry
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Position Papers are official documents of the Church that have been approved by its General Presbytery.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Supernatural manifestations and gifts of the Holy Spirit have played a distinctive role in the origin, development, and growth of the Assemblies of God. From the earliest days of our organization, spiritual gifting has been evident in the ministries of many outstanding women. Divine enablement has also been seen in the spiritual leadership of women in other Pentecostal groups. The Pentecostal movement believes that the 20th-century outpouring of the Spirit is a true fulfillment of the scriptural prediction, "Your daughters shall prophecy... and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my Spirit" (Joel 2:28, 29).

The Bible as Final Authority
The history and current practice of the Assemblies of God give demonstration that God can and does bless the public ministry of women. Yet there is currently much debate concerning the proper role of women in spiritual leadership. So it is appropriate to ask if Scripture describes any limits to this public ministry. We all agree that Scripture must be our final authority in settling questions of faith and practice. But when born-again, Spirit-filled Christians, following proper hermeneutical principles, come to reasonable but differing interpretations, we do well not to become dogmatic in support of one position. We affirm the inerrancy and authority of Scripture. We desire to know for certain what God expects of us. When we come to a sure understanding of His divine Word, we are committed to declaring and obeying those clear instructions. But we also exercise caution in giving authoritative importance to interpretations that do not have indisputable support from the whole of Scripture. Although the Holy Spirit may be active in the work of translation and interpretation, we cannot claim inerrancy for interpretations (even of extant Hebrew or Greek texts).

Historical and Global Precedent
In the early days of most revivals, when spiritual fervor is high and the Lord's return is expected at any time, there is often a place for, and acceptance of, the anointed ministry of women. Over time, however, concerns about organization and lines of authority begin to emerge, and the group moves toward a more structured ministry. As institutional concerns come to the forefront, the spiritual leadership of women is accepted less readily, and church leadership becomes predominately male. The experience of the Assemblies of God has been no exception to this progression.

Twentieth-century practice among Pentecostals around the world reveals evidence of a genuine struggle to apply biblical truth in various cultural contexts. In some settings, female spiritual leadership is readily accepted; in others, though women may have limited ministry, leadership posts are withheld from them. At times there is inconsistency between the leadership a female missionary has at home and that which she has on the field, or between her opportunities and those of a national female. Indeed, culture has influenced the extent of leadership a woman has been allowed to share. The Church must always be sensitive to cultural concerns, but it must look to Scripture for the truth that applies to all times and cultures.

Biblical Examples of Women in Ministry
Old Testament history includes accounts of strong female leadership. Miriam was a prophet, one of the triumvirate of leaders God sent to Israel during the Exodus period (Exodus 15:20). Deborah, as prophet and judge, led the army of the Lord into successful combat (Judges 4 to 5). Huldah, also a prophet, authenticated the scroll of the Law found in the temple and helped spark the great religious reform in the days of Josiah (2 Kings 22; 2 Chronicles 34).

The New Testament also records ministering women in the Church Age. Tabitha (Dorcas) is called a disciple and had a ministry of helps (Acts 9:36). Philip had four virgin daughters who prophesied (Act s 21:8,9). Euodia and Syntyche were Paul's coworkers who shared in his struggle to spread the gospel (Philippians 4:2,3). Priscilla was another of Paul's exemplary "fellow workers in Christ Jesus" (Romans 16:3,4, NIV). In Romans 16, Paul greets a multitude of ministering persons, a large number of them women.

Phoebe, a leader in the church at Cenchrea, was highly commended to the church at Rome by Paul (Romans 16:1,2). Unfortunately, biases of modern English translators have sometimes obscured Phoebe's position of leadership, calling her a "servant" or "helper", etc. Yet Phoebe was diakonos of the church at Cenchrea. Paul often used this term for a minister or leader of a congregation and applied it specifically to Jesus Christ, Tychicus, Epaphras, Timothy, and to his own ministry. Depending on the context, diakonos is usually translated "deacon" or "minister." Though some translators have chose n the word deaconess (because Phoebe was a woman), such a distinction is not in the original Greek. It seems likely that diakonos was the designation for an official leadership position in the Early Church.

Junia was identified by Paul as an apostle (Romans 16:7). But many translators and scholars, unwilling to admit there could have been a female apostle, have since the 13th century masculinized her name to Junias. The biblical record shows that Paul was a strong advocate of women's ministry.

The instances of women filling leadership roles in the Bible should be taken as a divinely approved pattern, not as exceptions to divine decrees. Even a limited 34-4191 of women with scripturally commended leadership roles should affirm that God does indeed call women to spiritual leadership.

A Biblical Survey of the Role of Women in Ministry
Of primary importance in defining the scriptural role of women in ministry is the biblical meaning of "ministry". Of Christ our great model, it was said, "For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many" (Mark 10:45). New Testament leadership, as modeled by Jesus, portrays the spiritual leader as a servant. The question of human authority is not of primary significance, though it naturally arises as organization and structure develop.

Genesis 2:18-25
Some expositors have taught that all women should be subordinate to adult men because Eve was created after Adam to be his helper ("help meet", KJV). Yet the word ezer ("helper") is never used in the Hebrew Bible with a subordinate meaning. Seventeen out of the twenty times it is used, it refers to God as the helper. Instead of being created as a subordinate, Eve was created to be a "suitable" (kenegdo) helper, or one "corresponding to" Adam.

Some argue that God created men and women with different characteristics and desires, and that these differences explain why leadership roles should be withheld from women. Others attribute these perceived differences to culture and social expectations imposed on children from birth to adulthood. Physical differences and distinctive biological functions are obvious; but it is only by implication that gender distinctives can be made to suggest leadership limitations.

Paul's Emphasis on Charismatic Ministry
Ministry in the New Testament is charismatic in nature. It is made possible and energized as the Holy Spirit sovereignly distributes spiritual gifts (charismata) to each member of the body of Christ (Romans 12:6-8; 1 Corinthians 12:7-11,27,28; Ephesians 4:7-12; 1 Peter 4:10,11). While some gifts are a spontaneous work of the Spirit and others are recognized ministry gifts to the Body, all are given for service without regard to gender differentiation. For example, the gift of prophecy is explicitly for both men and women: "Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy" (Acts 2:17). That women received and exercised this gift of the Spirit is well attested in the New Testament (Acts 21:9; 1 Corinthians 11:5).

If Peter found certain statements by Paul hard to understand (2 Peter 3:16), then it is no surprise that we, who are removed by 1900 additional years of history, would share his struggle in interpreting some Pauline passages. And we, like Peter (2 Peter 3:15), must respect and love our brothers and sisters who hold alternative interpretations on issues that are not critical to our salvation or standing before God. We only request that those interpretations be expressed and practiced in love and consideration for all of God's children, both men and women.

First Corinthians 11:3-12
The statement that "the man is the head of the woman" has for centuries been used to justify the practice of male superiority and to exclude women from spiritual leadership. Two alternative translations for kephale ("head"), debated widely by contemporary evangelical scholars, are (1) "authority over" and (2) "source" or "origin." Both meanings can be found in literature of Paul's time.

Taking the passage as a whole, the second meaning fits as well as or better than the first meaning, leading to the summary statement of verse 12: "As the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things [are] of God." Even the relationship between the eternal Son and the Father--"the head of Christ is God" (11:3)--fits better as "source" than "authority over" (cf. John 8 :42). Without attempting to resolve this debate, we do not find sufficient evidence in kephale to deny leadership roles to

women (in light of biblical examples of women in positions of spiritual authority, and in light of the whole counsel of Scripture).

First Corinthians 14:34-36
There are only two passages in the entire New Testament which might seem to contain a prohibition against the ministry of women (1 Corinthians 14:34 and 1 Timothy 2:12). Since these must be placed along side Paul's other statements and practices, they can hardly be absolute, unequivocal prohibitions of the ministry of women. Instead, they seem to be teachings dealing with specific, local problems that needed correction.

There are various interpretations of what Paul was limiting when he said, "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak" (14:34). Options include (1) chatter in public services, (2) ecstatic disruptions, (3) certain authoritative ministries (such as judging prophecies), and (4) asking questions during the service. Yet, Paul does allow women to pray and prophesy in the corporate service (1 Corinthians 11:5).

Although we may not solve all the difficulties of this chapter, we do conclude that this passage does not prohibit female leadership, but like the rest of the chapter, it admonishes that "all things be done decently and in order" (1 Corinthians 14:40).

First Timothy 2:11-15
The meaning and application of Paul's statement, "I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man" (1 Timothy 2:12), have puzzled interpreters and resulted in a variety of positions on the role of women in ministry and spiritual leadership. Is the prohibition of women teaching and exercising authority a universal truth, or was Paul reporting his application of divine truth for the society and Christian community to which he and Timothy ministered?

From the above survey of passages on exemplary women in ministry, it is clear that Paul recognized the ministry of women. Yet there were some obvious problems concerning women in Ephesus. They were evidently given to immodest apparel and adornment (1 Timothy 2:9). The younger widows "learn to be idle,... and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not" (1 Timothy 5:13). In his second letter to Timothy, Paul warned against depraved persons (possibly including women) who manipulated "weak-willed", or "gullible", women (2 Timothy 3:6, NIV).

A reading of the entire passage of 1 Timothy 2:9-15 strongly suggests that Paul was giving Timothy advice about dealing with some heretical teachings and practices involving women in the church at Ephesus. The heresy may have been so serious that he had to say about the Ephesian women, "I am not allowing women to teach or have authority over a man." But we know from other passages that such an exclusion was not normative in Paul's ministry.

First Timothy 3:1-13
This entire passage has been held by some to confirm that all leaders and authorities in the Early Church were intended to be, and indeed were, males. It is true that the passage deals primarily with male leadership, most likely because of majority practice and expectations. When there were women leaders, like Phoebe, they would be expected to meet the same standards of character and behavior.

Translations of verse 11 present evidence of the translator's choice based on personal expectations. The word gunaikas can be translated as either "wives" or "women," depending on the translator's assumptions concerning the context. One rendering leaves the impression that these are qualifications for deacons' wives; the other suggests this exhortation is addressed to female spiritual leaders.

Although the first-century cultural milieu produced a primarily male church leadership, this passage along with other biblical evidence of female spiritual leadership (e.g., Acts 21:9; Romans 16:1-15 ; Philippians 4:2,3) demonstrates that female leadership was not prohibited, either for Paul's day or for today. Passages which imply that most leaders were male should not be made to say that women cannot be leaders.

Galatians 3:28
Those who oppose allowing women to hold positions of spiritual leadership must place contextual limitations on Galatians 3:28. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

Some interpreters restrict the meaning of this triad to salvation by faith or oneness in Christ. That truth is certainly articulated throughout Scripture. Yet the verse carries a ring of universal application for all our relationships, not just an assurance that anyone can come to Christ. "Neither Jew nor Greek.... neither bond nor free... neither male nor female"--these are basic relationship principles to which faithful followers of Christ must give highest priority.

The God of the Bible has "no respect of persons" (Romans 2:11; cf. also 2 Samuel 14:14; 2 Chronicles 19:7; Acts 10:34; Ephesians 6:9). He calls whom He will and gives gifts and ministries as He chooses; man must not put limitations on divine prerogatives. In Christ we are truly set free from sin and its curse, which separate from God and elevate or demean according to race, social standing, or gender.

Therefore We Conclude
After examining the various translations and interpretations of biblical passages relating to the role of women in the first-century church, and desiring to apply biblical principles to contemporary church practice, we conclude that we cannot find convincing evidence that the ministry of women is restricted according to some sacred or immutable principle.

We are aware that the ministry and leadership of women are not accepted by some individuals, both within and outside the Christian community. We condemn all prejudice and self-promotion, by men or women. The existence in the secular world of bigotry against women cannot be denied. But there is no place for such an attitude in the body of Christ. We acknowledge that attitudes of secular society, based on long-standing practice and tradition, have influenced the application of biblical principles to local circumstances. We desire wisely to respect yet help redeem cultures which are at variance with Kingdom principles. Like Paul, we affirm the Great Commission takes priority over every other consideration. We must reach men and women for Christ, no matter what their cultural or ethnic customs may be. The message of redemption has been carried to remote parts of the world through the ministry of dedicated, Spirit-filled men and women. A believer's gifts and anointing should still today make a way for his or her ministry. The Pentecostal ministry is not a profession to which men or women merely aspire; it must always be a divine calling, confirmed by the Spirit with a special gifting.

The Assemblies of God has been blessed and must continue to be blessed by the ministry of God's gifted and commissioned daughters. To the degree that we are convinced of our Pentecostal distinctives--that it is God who divinely calls and supernaturally anoints for ministry--we must continue to be open to the full use of women's gifts in ministry and spiritual leadership.

As we look on the fields ripe for harvest, may we not be guilty of sending away any of the reapers God calls. Let us entrust to these women of God the sacred sickle, and with our sincerest blessings thrust them out into the whitened fields.

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 2007/6/13 17:20Profile









 Re:

Hia Phoebe, I see this was printed this year.

I haven't kept tabs on the AoG since they introduced some new things into their Services some years ago.

My husband was an AoG Pastor and we went to an AoG Bible College.

That was 30 or more years ago that he went and our Professors were all old. Great men who loved Acedemics over phenomena.

Anyways, the last I heard from District Headquarters was at a meeting of Pastors only, they told them to throw out the hymn books, get over head projectors and only sing contemporary music and to not preach as much hell stuff and if the over 50 crowd didn't like it, they could leave.

A lot went on at those District Meetings that I won't bore you with, but some of it curled my already curled enough hair.

I'm sorry if I sound hard on them, but I know that the old retired Missionaries who taught us back then and are in Heaven now, would barely recognise their old denomination.

Reading this, I can see that they have changed indeed. This whole thing is full and could be taken sentence by sentence and it be seen where they have surely changed their views on inerrancy and all.

Quote:
Although the Holy Spirit may be active in the work of translation and interpretation, we cannot claim inerrancy for interpretations (even of extant Hebrew or Greek texts).



Phew, and that's just one sentence I randomly pulled and one I know our old professors would not agree with.

The point on this thread is woman in authority and no example of the woman they've given fits in with any authority except that the men went to Prophetess's to get a word from God, but then the men would go back and be the heads of whatever the Lord spoke through her.
We already discussed Deborah earlier in this thread.

Another example they gave:Rom 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
Rom 16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succorer of many, and of myself also.

A servant is not an Authority figure and neither was Dorcas, and they misinterpreted Rom 16:7 saying that Andronicus and Junia were apostles, but it says they were 'noted by the apostles' and Junia may be either masculine or feminine and Andronicus' wife. All the rest were just helpers and many along with their husbands. The woman took care of the needs of the Apostles in many ways that woman still do. History tells us that woman ministered and taught woman. They were very big on that back then. The Deaconess was to minister to woman's needs and so on.

I believe in the gifts, very much so, but the order in the Church is still set by Scripture and proper exegesis of those Scriptures and not by any Denomination. Most especially by one that has watered down and modernized itself so drastically in just the last 30 years.

This is just my personal experience with them and no reflection on 'every' AoG Pastor.
Mine was great, but he's retired now.

Lord Bless you sister.

 2007/6/13 23:08





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