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crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Sister

Hi Forrest,

Quote:
Phillip has marshalled more defenses of my position than I ever could myself.

But are they not counterbalanced by still the same verses in question?
Quote:
A woman does not need to be under headship anymore. Her headship is Christ, so is the man's.

Not according to what Paul had spoken, is he in error? We are again speaking of order and only order. Why is that so difficult to comprehend for us and why the 'defending'?

Quote:
Or do you think that women are not given gifts of the Spirit?



Why would I, have made no reference to nor given any indication whatsoever. I am at pains to just stick to the main, root point.
Quote:
Mike, you are so troubled by a sense of riven order that you do not even hear me when I say I do not want to take the authority of a Pastor, except under the most extreme conditions of war and tribulation



That is not what you said, perhaps that is what you may have wanted to say or failed to say. But again we would be talking of hypotheticals or 'what if' scenarios. Isn't this curious why we do these sort of things. We are placing a principle at the expense of an aberration, a possibility that may or may not come. If it did ... then I would do such and so.
Quote:
You say I can be ordained, but it means nothing.


Actually I may have muddled that, I am saying you cannot be ordained under that which was laid out by Paul. I was attempting to make the similar point that a great deal of this is worthless regardless without any spiritual undergirding.

All I am asking here is, is there scriptural warrant for this?

And yes, that you would 'consider' it I cannot see squaring either, it seems to be a justifying without the same scriptural backing.

Quote:
And that ordination that you write is as nothing...well, I at least take it seriously. Tell me, when you drive by an accident on the freeway or on a busy highway, do you back up half a mile to see if someone needs help or prayer? Yes, a clergy card came with my pointless little ordination, and the police, by law, have to let me by.



This confuses the matter it seems to me. What or who determines what is the 'clergy'. Who appointed woman to be 'ministers'? Does one have to be under a functioning local church to be part of the 'clergy'? Real questions here, I am not attacking ... this raises more questions than answers.

Quote:
Will you pick up that responsibility for me, along with all the others, so I can sit at home, and tend to my housewifery?



Is that necessary? For all the attempts to get down to the spiritual roots of the matter, to the floor of the basement ...
Quote:
I am ordained as a minister of the gospel, a servant of the good news, as an evangelist, by Dr. Ford of St. Luke Evangelical Ministries. I write about Jesus, and Christianity. And that is called teaching by just about anyone.



And you can do all that without any 'title' can you not? Or is there a new dictate whereby we half side with questionable practices and at the same time distance ourselves from them ... I am almost more alarmed, if that is the word, at those that have setup this system where spiritual principles are pragmatised and freely they can bestow titles and therefore confusion ... what does the history of the church speak to all this, is this not a very recent and modern development? The true church that is, apostolic, biblical. Am I really asking too much for a closer examination of scriptures here?

Quote:
I have no husband to submit to...he was apostate, and an adulterer, and he deserted me after I was severly injured in an auto accident. So I submit to Christ, and since it is He that lifted me out of bed at 3:00 in the morning with a red hot staff in the diaphragm last July, if you have objections, speak to Him about it, for He is my cover, and my authority.



Again unfair ... I am attempting to address a spiritual principle not an attack on personal situations. You know my heart far better than that.

Quote:
I am distressed for your confusion about Spiritual Authority, but I am not confused in myself, nor have I any ambitions to do more than what God has already told me to do.



Well don't be, I am not confused in that sense. I have gone at length attempting to ... I think there is much being missed, Jeannette picked up on it ... Whatever God tells us to do will square with what He has already spoken.

Quote:
And do you know, I don't even attempt to [i]write[/i] with a sense of spiritual authority.



Thank God! Me neither, the minute we do it is disaster. ... Stephen Kaung, did I mention those messages ? ;-)

Quote:
I obey Paul's directives literally, even though I think he is much misunderstood by those that wish to retain all authority in their hands.

But even if I were not in obedience to Paul,



Paul's directives are the Lords as well, Peter, James, John, there is no distinctions and that I think is part of the great trouble with all this.

I think we are talking past each other here. This is not about lording it over anyone but just trying to grapple with the reasons behind Paul's admonishens.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/6/11 16:56Profile









 Re: A Request

Could I ask all of us to do something?

I was led to do it on Sunday, as a response to the talk (mentioned earlier on this thread). Ask the Lord if in our heart there is still any areas of rebellion against [i]HIM[/i]. And if there is, to deal with it.

If we do that, our relationships with others in the Body of Christ will come right too.

And we should begin to come more into line with what the Lord, in Paul, really intended when he forbade women to teach. Was it to be for all time in all circumstances??? Personally I think not, that there are exceptions - cases where a woman could teach, yet be in submission to God-given male authority at the same time.

But I could be wrong, and no way do I want to be a "hyaena"

Also I believe that the days are coming when we, the true Church, will have to stand alone if need be, or we will be scattered by persecution into such small groups that the usual church order and authority will no longer be possible.

That is why we MUST get our hearts right, or the Lord won't be able to use us in those circumstances.

Love in Him

Jeannette

 2007/6/11 17:55









 Re:

Quote:
Also I believe that the days are coming when we, the true Church, will have to stand alone if need be, or we will be scattered by persecution into such small groups that the usual church order and authority will no longer be possible.

I think this is the kind of situation which Forrest is talking about. The Lord is preparing His people, and He seems to be starting with certain individuals who will become a small "nucleus" of life and hope in the gathering darkness. Not necessarily in leadership in the ordinary way, but to be a place, a "city of refuge" if you like (to use an Old Testament term) for those who flee persecution, or who are seeking God.

Blessings

Jeannette

 2007/6/11 18:02
murdog
Member



Joined: 2006/2/4
Posts: 352
Fort Frances, Ontario

 Re:

Members,

Quote:
If i felt that long hair, skirts, silence, headcoverings, etc were the answer GOD INTENDED, I'd be there in a jiff



I have actually started going to a Mennonite church for the past few weeks, and as you probably already know they do all these things literally. They also wash one another's feet and a host of other things that most people today have phased out because they seemed antiquated.

I'll tell you one thing the mennonites have going on is a great reverence for God and his word. I actually feel like a blemish there, but I am really enjoying the sound teaching. They even read the scriptures that talk about Hell and judgment.

Anyways to get back to your comment that I quoted I don't think most people would be there in a jiff.

I was attending a Pentecostal church for the past few years and I was always told that the scriptures pertaining to women teaching and the way they should dress was limited to the women at Corinth.

I have studied the scriptures pertaining to these things and I don't believe they have been nullified.

The problem today is that there are so few men who are fit to be in leadership, I mean if you go by the standards set in Timothy. (Which are still the standards to use). The other thing about the Pentecostal church I attended the women were more dedicated than the men especially in the areas of service and prayer. In spite of all this , we do not have the right to go beyond what is written and appoint a woman pastor. Even if it seems right to us.

Quote:
fruitless Christian living



I believe the reason for this is that we have ignored the order that God set forth in his word, not to mention almost everything else that didn't tickle our fancy,(loving our enemies, not looking at another woman lustfully who is not our wife,etc.)

Who is actually fulfilling the Great Commandment? I know I fall painfully short!

Murray


_________________
Murray Beninger

 2007/6/11 19:34Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Spiritual grappling

Quote:
I think this is the kind of situation which Forrest is talking about. The Lord is preparing His people, and He seems to be starting with certain individuals who will become a small "nucleus" of life and hope in the gathering darkness. Not necessarily in leadership in the ordinary way, but to be a place, a "city of refuge" if you like (to use an Old Testament term) for those who flee persecution, or who are seeking God.



An orderly one? I do understand all the things we might bring to this as to current or possible things that may or may not be going on. There is a degree that would beg off of all this to more seemingly important matters, there are certainly those. But it is an observable trait again that it leads off to side issues that casts the main matter off to one side and never has any resolution. I am just as willing and tempted to do as much frankly, but at the same time I am not feeling particularly weary over it ... beating a dead horse as the parlance would have it in continuing on the same points ... I would rather not nor is this another insinuation other than against myself.

What is the default spiritual mechanism over things thought doubtful, is it to assert or to revert?


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/6/11 21:17Profile









 Re:There's a famine

This is not for any one person. Please understand that first. It's just something pressing on me.

There are signs that we are starving to death.

Proverbs talks about the guy who is too lazy to even pick up his fork from the plate and put it in his mouth.

It reminded of this scripture -

[b]Amo 8:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:
Amo 8:10 And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day.
Amo 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
Amo 8:12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it. [/b]

If we don't start feeding ourselves on just the Word and doing our 'own' homework, we're in for a whole world full of mess.

IF we just used Scripture and lots of it, to back up what we believe - on any topic/doctrine, then we would have a "thus saith The LORD" revival in our circles.

I'm just using this thread to grieve over this lack of care for The Bread of Life.

It's all "I think", for the most part on most forums or conversations at Church - in our own thoughts, wherever.
When when someone asks about a subject ... we give them what others have said about some verses. Or to sermons.
I use commentaries & sermons for posting sometimes too, so I don't mean that ... but if the person asking or those answering, would use the Whole of the Word and nothing more, it would settle the issue - at least in Heaven.

We've got free Bible Programs out there. I have 3 that were free on line. I like the e-sword.net one the best, but why can't we look up verses for each subject and put them all in separate folders under that subject/doctrine title ?
Like The Deity of Christ, just for one.
It takes weeks of finding and putting all those references for just that one doctrine into it's separate folder, but it's the most exciting thing to do in the world.
The LORD will honor anyone doing that and whatever doctrine/subject that they set out to do this with, the LORD will cause those verses to POP right off pages for you and you'll find the cross-references and all to go with it.
It's Wonderful.
Then you can feed others the Bread of Life, and be ready for an answer immediately, without having to say "I think" one time.
There isn't one poster on this Board that can't do this for themselves.
And sadly enough -- it IS what God had intended for each of us, individually/personally to do ... while we still do have the Word at hand.
Richard Wurmbrand said, preachers can only tell you 'about' what the truth says, but The Word is the Living Truth. It's Alive and we know all the verses about what Scripture is.

If we were truly "people of The Word", then men would be men of God and woman would know how to trust God to use them the way HE has planned from before the foundations and be content with their gifts.

When she opens up her mouth in wisdom - Prov 31 - it won't be with "I think" as a header, but "Thus saith The Word of The LORD".

If you're only posting/speaking Scripture - then who can stand against His Word, except the enemies of His Word. They can call you arrogant or whatever, but if it's just quoting The Word, then the Truth is settled in Heaven and they can burn us at the stake at that point, but we'll know where our strength came from and where we 'stand'.

Please, just start by reading 2Kings22 and pray God would give you a burden & burning passion for His Word alone.


Thank you for letting me release this here.
[b]Love you all.[/b]

Annie

 2007/6/11 21:41
pastorfrin
Member



Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


 Re:

Quote:
What is the default spiritual mechanism over things thought doubtful, is it to assert or to revert?



Revert:
To slip from a higher or better condition to a former, usually lower or poorer one: backslide, lapse, regress, relapse, retrogress.

Reverting is not an option.

"[u]If you continue in my word[/u] then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free."

If you talk to a wall long enough will it become a window?

The only 'IF' is to continue in His Word.
If we do the Holy Spirit Will bring truth and it will set us free.

Something to remember, God the Father set His order in place and even Christ is in subjection to His order.

1 Cor. 15:28
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

In His Love
pastorfrin


 2007/6/11 22:03Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: To the law and the testimony!

Well said Annie, very well said. Commentaries are interesting in that they are also the 'folders' of those who came before us.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/6/11 23:07Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Revert or assert

Hi pastorfin,

Interesting how definitions can be given;

[b]Revert
REVERT', v.t.[/b] [L. reverto; re and verto, to turn.]

1. To turn back; to turn to the contrary; to reverse.

Till happy chance revert the cruel scene.

[Instead of revert, in this sense, reverse is generally used.]

2. To drive or turn back; to reverberate; as a stream reverted.

REVERT', v.i.

1. To return; to fall back.

2. In law, to return to the proprietor, after the determination of a particular estate. A feud granted to a man for life, or to him and his issue male, or his death or failure of issue male, reverted to the lord or proprietor.

REVERT', n. In music, return; recurrence; antistrophy.

Ye Old Websters 1828 Dictionary

Had this more in mind before really looking it up. Along with that the idea of submission to ... A verse keeps wanting to have some expression in all this discussion;

Problem is I cannot for the life of me figure out where I am drawing it from, it is on the order of [i]pushing yourself forward[/i], the wrong kind of assertiveness, the opposite of Jesus washing the disciples feet.

But was also musing a bit on the classic "how much can I get away with" mentality that often new believers even old ones for that matter can measure things by. Nothing by accusation again, perhaps still looking at the dynamics of asserting and usurping.

Edit:

Quote:
Something to remember, God the Father set His order in place and even Christ is in subjection to His order.



That is a very profound thing to dwell on.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/6/11 23:51Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Re Spiritual Authority

Mike,

I want to answer several points that you have brought up along the way, but I need some information to not be talking in the dark, or past you, as you put at the end of your last post to me.

I don't intend for them to be trick questions or to necessarily use them in the arguments I may make. I want to know what I need not talk about in a fully reasoned study of authority in the church.

I feel as if what I am saying is not being heard. You may feel the same way. But I think it is valuable to continue the discussion.

Please tell me:


Which spiritual gifts, if any, are made available to women?

How old should a teacher be when they may begin teaching?

How old should a Pastor be to being leading a church?

What is the denomination your beliefs are closest to?

Do you think women may teach her children about God, if her husband permits, or she has no husband?

Do you think women may teach other women about God, if her husband permits, or if she has no husband?

Do you think women may teach their husbands if they are pagans?

In your church, is the line of authority from the Bishop to the Pastor, the Denominational Board to the Pastor, or the Church Elders that select the Pastor?

What duties do Elders or Deacons in your church have?

Do you believe that the concept of spiritual authority in the Church Corporate should be the same for all denominations?

Do you believe the Bible, having been written through men, is Inerrent & God Breathed or Inspired by the Holy Spirit?

Is a Pastor's spiritual authority in the church under his responsibility absolute or relative?

Under what conditions could a man disobey his pastor in a spiritual matter?

Have you studied in a seminary, and if so which one?

Do you think that training in a seminary is a requirement for a Pastor or Teacher?

In your church, does a man or a woman teach Sunday School?


Thank you for your patience with me in this very difficult discussion.


Blessings,

Forrest

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/6/12 10:41Profile





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