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 Jews Against Zionism

Yep, thats what I said. There are Jews that oppose the Jewish State. They claim that the Torah forbids the formation of a Jewish state, that they are to live among the nations, they are exiled by God because of disobedience. It was because of the holocaust that the European nations demanded a Jewish state be formed.

These people seem to know more than we do, sad to say.

Check out the link: scroll toward the bottom to listen.
[url=http://www.nkusa.org/activities/Conferences/2006Dec12Iran.cfm]Jews Against Zionism[/url]

 2007/5/12 14:22









 Re: Jews Against Zionism

Compliments, brave of you to post this.

There is a difference between anti-zionism and anti-semitism.

 2007/5/12 14:26
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

There have always been Jews who opposed Zionism. Some Jews have seen Nazi Genocide as God's punishment for trying to establish Zion without the Messiah.

However, these particular Jews are clearly the puppets of the Iranian propaganda machine.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/5/12 15:18Profile









 Re:

Quote:
However, these particular Jews are clearly the puppets of the Iranian propaganda machine.



Their office is in New York.

 2007/5/13 16:37









 Re:

In one sense this has nothing to do with the Jewish nation, or Zionism. It has [i]everything[/i] to do with the faithfulness of God, in spite of human rebellion and unfaithfulness.

The question isn't whether Zionism is right or wrong but, [i][u][b]"Does God keep His word?"[/b][/u][/i]

He said He would punish His people by exile, and He said He would bring them back again to the land He promised to Abraham, and would there speak to their hearts.

It is true, as this group maintains, that the Jewish people were exiled for their sins, especially of rejecting their own Messiah. (Yet the Lord used even that tragic fact to cause the Gospel to spill out to the nations, as He promised Abraham, "in you shall all the nations of the earth be blessed".)

There are prophecies that Israel would return to the land. Which has happened, exactly as He said, within living memory.

I don't see how this anti-Zionist group can understand and believe the first part of this but not the latter.

Have they read in their own Scriptures? For example, in Jeremiah 30:

[color=000066] 8 “And it shall come to pass in that day, says the Lord of hosts, that I will break the yoke from off their neck, and I will burst their bonds, and strangers shall no more make servants of them. 9 But they shall serve the Lord their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them. 10 “Then fear not, O Jacob my servant, says the Lord,
nor be dismayed, O Israel;
for lo, I will save you from afar,
and your offspring from the land of their captivity.
[i][u][b]Jacob shall return[/b][/u][/i] and have quiet and ease,
and none shall make him afraid. 11 For I am with you to save you, says the Lord;
[i][u][b]I will make a full end of all the nations
among whom I scattered you,
but of you I will not make a full end.[/b][/u][/i]
I will chasten you in just measure,
and I will by no means leave you unpunished...[/color]

Yes, I know there is a spiritual interpretation, that especially comes out in verses 8-9, and that "David" is the Lord Jesus, but there is ALSO a natural intepretation. There are things God has spoken about His natural people that are not yet completely fulfilled. (An obvious one is that the present State of Israel still seems to be as Godless and rebellious as any modern nation - although there is always a "faithful Remnant". Another is that the full extent of the land promised to Abraham has not been possessed)


Blessings


Jeannette

 2007/5/14 16:20
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Art Katz has an excellent book on the entire issue of the Jew in regard to the land and God's covenantal dealings with them entitled "The Holocaust: Where Was God?" Highly recommended.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2007/5/14 16:28Profile









 Re: extent of the land

Quote:
Yes, I know there is a spiritual interpretation, that especially comes out in verses 8-9, and that "David" is the Lord Jesus, but there is ALSO a natural intepretation. There are things God has spoken about His natural people that are not yet completely fulfilled. (An obvious one is that the present State of Israel still seems to be as Godless and rebellious as any modern nation - although there is always a "faithful Remnant". [b][i]Another is that the full extent of the land promised to Abraham has not been possessed[/i][/b])

Genesis 15:18[color=000066] 18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates[/color]

Deuteronomy 11:24
[color=000099]24 Every place on which the sole of your foot treads shall be yours; your territory shall be from the wilderness and Lebanon and from the River, the river Euphrates, to the western sea. [/color]

I'm not good at history or Geography but I don't think that even Solomon's empire stretched that far. His influence did, I think, but he didn't actually rule as far as the Euphrates.

Is that correct?


Jeannette

 2007/5/14 16:30









 Re: Jews against Zionism


Hi Jeanette,

I noticed this reference to Euphrates not so long ago, and remembered it arises in Eden (Gen 2:14).

It is similar to the imagery in this reference to 'Adam'.

Joshua 3:16
the waters which came down from upstream stood [i]still, and[/i] rose in a heap very far away at Adam, the city that [i]is[/i] beside Zaretan. So the waters that went down into the Sea of the Arabah, the Salt Sea, failed, [and] were cut off; and the people crossed over opposite Jericho.


I'm sure you've seen hymns with references to 'Eden repossessed' or similar.

There is something about both cities and rivers - of spiritual significance - which cannot be ignored, I believe.

This is not to say the land is not important, but Jesus Himself said His kingdom is not of this world, and had endless difficulty in communicating the concept to those who would claim they had already understood what God had said through the prophets.






 2007/5/14 16:53









 Re: rivers

Quote:

dorcas wrote:

Hi Jeanette,

I noticed this reference to Euphrates not so long ago, and remembered it arises in Eden (Gen 2:14).

It is similar to the imagery in this reference to 'Adam'.

Joshua 3:16
the waters which came down from upstream stood [i]still, and[/i] rose in a heap very far away at Adam, the city that [i]is[/i] beside Zaretan. So the waters that went down into the Sea of the Arabah, the Salt Sea, failed, [and] were cut off; and the people crossed over opposite Jericho.

I'm sure you've seen hymns with references to 'Eden repossessed' or similar.

There is something about both cities and rivers - of spiritual significance - which cannot be ignored, I believe.

This is not to say the land is not important, but Jesus Himself said His kingdom is not of this world, and had endless difficulty in communicating the concept to those who would claim they had already understood what God had said through the prophets.

Hi again Linn

I have avoided this subject for some time because we didn't seem to be getting anywhere with our "offline" discussion. Although I have continued to ponder and pray on the issue.

I am blessed that you do acknowledge the land may be important. I didn't think you would!

You said:
Quote:
Jesus Himself said His kingdom is not of this world, and had endless difficulty in communicating the concept to those who would claim they had already understood what God had said through the prophets[/i]

Indeed He did! But that doesn't mean denying or losing sight of the temporal aspects of Truth (not saying you do, but some here may).

Both have to be held together in balance.

Man was created to be free of both natural and spiritual worlds. - A sort of hybrid - body, soul and spirit together in one individual - unlike the animals (body and soul?) and angels (soul and spirit but no body?) That's off topic, but i find it interesting!

As I said, the main issue to me, re Israel, is that [i][b]God must keep His Word - even to a stiffnecked and rebellious people[/b][/i] - as we all are, when left to ourselves!

Interesting comment on significance of rivers. Although I don't remember any hymns that speak of "Eden repossessed". The nearest I can think of is where it says (in "Jesus shall reign..."?)

[i]"...In Him the tribes of Adam boast
More blessings than their father lost"[/i]

The city "Adam" apparently isn't the same word as the man Adam, (looked it up once, the word means meadow or field if I remember). But the river is of course significant.

Mmmm Rivers could make a good study...

Just looked up Euphrates - the word means "fruitfulness" And Jordan is "descender"

"He who humbles himself shall be exalted"? Crossing Jordan is of course symbolic of "death to self". Significant that John baptized in the Jordan...

I'm not sure if the Eden mentioned re the Euphrates is the same as where the Garden of Eden was. Depends on the changes to the geography of the earth after the Flood, I suppose. Maybe that area was more or less preserved (though there must have been huge deposits of sediment that buried the original river) in spite of the Flood.

But that is a subject for another thread maybe.

Blessings


Jeannette

 2007/5/14 17:46









 Re: Jews against Zionism


Jeanette said

Quote:
[i][b]God must keep His Word - even to a stiffnecked and rebellious people[/b][/i]

I can't ignore the 'if' with which God accompanied His word. In my understanding, the 'if' also counts as part of His intentions.


On the point of the city Adam, I interpret the piling up of the waters of Jordan ('descender') as something to do with a way being made [i]through[/i] all the [u]death[/u] (descent) due to the human race - right back to the man Adam.


I notice about Euphrates that it also carries the meaning of 'send her away' in Hebrew. At first sight this may not seem to be compatible with 'fruitfulness', but if it is something to do with Eve (the mother of all living), then in the same way as a tree is at its weakest when it is fruitbearing, so is a woman. All her strength is going into the body being formed in her, just as the strength of the tree is poured into the fruit. For Eve, this did not happen till she had left the garden of Eden, when all her strength was poured into the next generation.


I notice Euphrates is also mentioned here:

Revelation 16:12
And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, [u]that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared[/u].

Your comment about how its course may have changed after the flood is interesting, but its source will not have changed. This is immaterial if God is going to dry it up, to make a highway for armies to advance northwestwards.

[url=http://encarta.msn.com/map_701512367/Euphrates.html]http://encarta.msn.com/map_701512367/Euphrates.html[/url]

[url=http://www.biblestudy.org/maps/eurphrates-river-map.html]http://www.biblestudy.org/maps/eurphrates-river-map.html[/url]


EDIT:

Jeremiah 51 (NKJV)

63 "Now it shall be, when you have finished reading this book, [i]that[/i] you shall tie a stone to it and throw it out into the Euphrates.

64 "Then you shall say,
'Thus Babylon shall sink and not rise from the catastrophe that I will bring upon her. And they shall be weary.' " Thus far [i]are[/i] the words of Jeremiah.

 2007/5/15 9:57





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