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daniel-
Member



Joined: 2005/8/25
Posts: 130
Germany

 Re:

Hey hopepurifies,

I completely agree with what you have said.
The church here has its "beautiful sections". It is just not the hymns you know.
Anyway, I for myself am glad that I will be back to Europe, soon :)

Again, I understand and agree with most of your concerns!

My whole point was:
You cannot judge about the condition of a people because you saw a 20-second clip of something that may not fit into your perception of holiness.
Do I make sense?

daniel


_________________
Daniel Sahm

 2007/5/12 11:47Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
the reason I love hymns, are the reason they don't.


:-)


_________________
TJ

 2007/5/12 11:50Profile
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

Quote:
But the point is, a time of worship should always have a solemn, contemplative, edifying (we should hear every word!), beautiful section. And when you go to rejoice, and more upbeat music, there must still be humility humility humility. So thats really what we're getting at here. It isn't about style, its about attitude. And it may be strange to the culture you're in but it honors God.



Indeed! I believe humility is the thing that is lacking with most modern worship songs.


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Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/5/12 12:12Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

the only thing i can say I'm so so so so tired and just so utterly grieved at the state of most churches, the video there is to me the "heart" of the Swedish church at large, no different in any other western country i can imagine, i need to be weeping more for his church,

right now I'm just broken, I'm broken because so many people are going to burn in hell, even thou the went to "church" whole their life's. I don't remember who said it but....the largest misssionfield are in our churches....

GOD HELP US, we are so utterly lost i don't think we even realize how far far of the edge we have gone. and the sad thing no one seems to be alarmed,


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2007/5/12 13:23Profile
Revived
Member



Joined: 2007/5/12
Posts: 3
South Africa

 Re: The World in the Church

Speaking about Africa, mid and South America and their 'beats'. I would like to throw more light on this.

Being a missionary in South Africa, we have found that when true repentance and salvation takes place the cultural ties are broken completely. One must therefore understand the root of those traditions.

How far should one go regarding this music thing. I would say as far as possible. One can test the fruit and then plainly see the motive.

Regards,

Revived

 2007/5/12 15:23Profile









 Re:

I've been involved in churches that were contemporary entertainment oriented. Many times I've heard "this is the way to reach this generation!"...

I have an almost 4 yr old son, and two older sons who were once almost 4 (and another son who will be almost four in another year). Here is a fact: if you put a plate of gummy bears and a plate of meat and veggies in front of him... which will he eat? Gummy bears.

As a parent, what do you do? Let him live on gummy bears? No way! You make that child eat his meat and veggies! Why? Because it's the only way he can grow and be healthy.

So what does the church do? If offers gummy bears thinking once they eat the gummy bears they'll want meat and veggies. Wrong! He wont want meat and veggies because his immediate hunger is met by the gummy bears... but not his nutritional (spiritual) needs.

I like rock music stylistically. It's what I grew up on, however the older I get the easier it is to not be so consumed by it. Lets not debate the merits of musical styles... the issue is the church's attitude that this, and other forms of "entertainment" are the only way to reach this generation of young people. I personally dont think this generation is all that shallow. I think they are looking for truth just as any other generation since Adam has.

If we take the gospel to the streets, and the kids reject it... you know what? We shouldn't be surprised. And on top of that, scripture tells us to dust off our sandels and move on. The world rejected Him, and it will reject us. In the meantime, a few along the way will be prompted by the Holy Spirit to respond.

Scripture says we should compel them to come in... not beg them to come in. Not seduce (entertain) them to come in. It said compel. To me, this means make the offer. Tell them about such a great salvation... but if they slap your hand back, move on. Pray for them, but move on.

Once they do come in, forget the entertainment in order to keep them there. Get the Word of God into them. The Word of God is power, and it is what brings salvation. Not music. Not skits. Not retreats. Not trips to Dollywood.

It's all about the Word of God, and the working of the Holy Spirit thru that Word.

And yes, people like us here on this forum are looked down upon because we oppose this foolishness. So what? One thing coaching has taught me... dont be concerned with what others think. Do whats right.

"oh... you're uncaring, Krispy, because you say we should just walk away from people who reject the gospel!"

No. I just believe in being obedient to God. Jesus said "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." (Matthew 7:6)

Jesus said that... not me.

The entertainment minded church does just the opposite.

Krispy

 2007/5/12 16:16
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7464
Mississippi

 Re: The World in the Church

Ah reckon, I must be living in the boonies! I am mortified with this video! To think people called THAT worship??!! Worship of what?

Now, I responded emotionally. But is that not what music engages - your emotions? To me it is similar to cooking spoiled meat to feed to your guests: it stinks and does not smell edible at all although with thorough cooking it might NOT kill you but it sure would not be appetizing.

Lord, have mercy!

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2007/5/12 16:37Profile
HopePurifies
Member



Joined: 2007/4/12
Posts: 181
Georgia, USA

 Re:

Quote:
Being a missionary in South Africa, we have found that when true repentance and salvation takes place the cultural ties are broken completely. One must therefore understand the root of those traditions.


Cool! Thanks for the insight! I love to hear from missionaries....
I always figured it wouldn't be different in other places either! I mean, most Americans on here can probably say they've completely broken ties with their culture, and on to other represented places here.

To tell you the truth, this very thing did disrupt my peace a bit. I only stopped listening to my thrash heavy metal a month or a month and a half ago? From there I pretty much ended up getting rid of a ton of music. And now I pretty much listen to the godly music section on here and things that would fit well on there. But then my friends who listen to any music put on a Spanish worship CD that wasn't much different than the stuff I had gotten rid of, just with a few different instruments. And so it stung my conscience a little bit. But I didn't want to judge a "culture". ?
Maybe some of you have heard of Urbana? It is a big conference for missionaries or people thinking about becoming missionaries. At one time I was wondering if missions was for me, and so I went. They seemed pretty ecumenical because they had Rick Warren and female pastors as speakers, and when I confronted the book selling guy about the Emerging Church section in their bookstore, I was told to be open-minded. Not withstanding, Urbana07's central interest was to get us to respect all cultural expressions of Christianity. Indians did a rain dance to Jesus. A girl from Hawaii did the dance thing for God. A drama team did dramas. I'm just not sure about all of it you know? I don't want, like my friends said, to convert the entire world into American Baptists or Presbyterians or whatever. But at the same time... what is holiness? You know?
When Paul says we become all things to all peoples, what does that mean? Does that mean we do rain dances for Indians? I used to use it to justify being a goth (to reach the goths ya know?). But I don't think its right. What does it mean?
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%209:19-23;&version=49;


_________________
Melanie

 2007/5/12 17:06Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
"oh... you're uncaring, Krispy, because you say we should just walk away from people who reject the gospel!"



I enjoyed your post Krispy

A lot of people think we should chase them down and get them in the church at any cost but the examples found in the Bible do not contain this method.

What about the rich young ruler?

Jesus just let him walk away.

Nobody loved him more than Jesus.


_________________
TJ

 2007/5/12 17:23Profile









 Re:

I agree HP, there is a line somewhere. We shouldnt go out into the world and turn people from other cultures into middle class Americans. We dont see ourselves as a "culture"... we see ourselves as normal. American Christians are uniqely American. I would suspect a Jamaican Christian is Jamaican. Etc etc...

We dont turn black people into white people when they get saved. And black churches in America are VERY different from white churches. You know what? I love visiting a black church now and then. It's great, and it completely different from a white church. And I want my kids to see it.

God created us in His image, but he also created us different from each other culturally. Many cultures have pagan roots. American culture, which is rooted deeply in Greek culture, has pagan roots.

Does that make American culture evil? Not necessarily... Obviously the sinful evil part of our culture we are to forsake. But I didnt stop being an American, thinking like an American, etc. Nor do I expect and African to stop being or thinking as an African, except in the aspect of sin.

But at the same time, we are called to be a holy people seperated unto God. There is a Christian "culture", if you will, that transcends earthly cultures. If I meet someone from the other side of the world who is a believer, we have an immediate bond and camraderie no matter what the earthly cultural differences may be.

But I'm against getting someone from Zimbabwe saved, and then putting a suit and tie on him and forcing southern gospel music down his throat and making him a clone of an American Christian. In fact, he'd be much better off if he never learned to be like an American Christian.

Krispy

 2007/5/12 17:27





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