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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : " The Book Of Revelation " ( finally understood )

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sonofthunder
Member



Joined: 2005/3/31
Posts: 419
Son Of Thunder i come from a land down under, due south at the bottom of your work globes

 " The Book Of Revelation " ( finally understood )

:-o As i began this Post i thought it appropriate to paste that icon at the beginning !

And why ? Simply because many desire to understand - and to know the things written in this great (finale book) of Holy scripture.

But how many get it right ? that is to say with-out them bungling it, or with-out them wresting it, or with-out the interpretation leading to nothing but ... idle and vain speculations ?

Like many of you i have read the entire book and its contents through from start to finish ( In fact ive read it through many dozens of times ) and ive also downloaded it sermon mp3 format, ive also read other people's takes and views on it. But having said all that thus far - to this day i remain "unconvinced" ( that any one person ) has a good handle on it ( that is with-out THEM putting their own spin on things or to be "intruding" into things they ought not ) or with-out them "doctoring" it ... according to their own interpretation - usually when they have done this - then the whole thing goes off rails ... crashing and burning !! :-x

I well recall being present at a series of meetings where a "theologian" was bringing forth expositional teaching on end-time events and that chiefly - of the "book" of Revelation.

I well remember to this day - how that when he came to the half-way stage REVELATION CHAP 12( that being the birth of the Manchild ) he took a deep breath ... and swallowing down hard on his adams apple, he launched into it and proceeded to instruct the class on what this manchild then "represented" and the interpration - OF IT !! hmmmmm

And He leaning hard - and falling back on his theological background and training - and deciding to "stick" with the "traditional" and conservative view - that being the woman is Mary and the man child is "Jesus" being birthed.

All good and well: but this view has it's inherent problems and flaws ... for instance from Revelation and chapter four onwards - the book addresses "future issues" that are yet to come to pass.

A close look at how chapter four begins - reveals how John sees through (an open door) and is invited by the spirit of God ... to look "ahead" - and see how this great panaroma of events unfolds. ( with history made in advance ).

And besides all this - the (2nd half) of chapter twelve does not concur or "tie in" with the first half of the chapter ...if indeed it is Mary/and Jesus being born (that is to say in this symbolic form of understanding). Now Allow me to elaborate further. For instance the woman after the completion of giving birth ... then immediately flees into the wilderness - and is "fed" for exactly (1260 days ) during this moment in time. !!

So where and how do you see that in scripture -that mary and Joseph fled from Herod and it being "precisely ... for "exactly" 1260 days ??

Anyway Why would a "futuristic book" be taking us back (into time) i ask you ? as though we somehow needed a lesson in "biblical history" again ( that purely - doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever )

God is "GO" forward thinking God ... and he has a "GO" forward plan for his church and FOR HIS CHILDREN ( he knows the beginning to the end - DOES HE NOT ? ) being the Alpha and Omega.

But neither do i (S.O.F) subscribe to the views that the man child is a "call to rally troops to a christian super army !! - and namely that of a super duper army of "overcomers". etc etc

Such movements are well known in the land for example ( the sons of God movement - the latter rain - and Joel's army ) just to name a few heretical movements - and besides all they do is gender towards both pride ... and an "elitism" mind-set.

So i/we reject these calls to spritual pride and to elitism and to that of exclusivness.

But the man child must then mean something ??

But the what and the wherfore - will come to light both ultimately and eventaully.

To him that hath ...shall be given ...
And he shall have abundance !!

To him that hath ears to hear ... then let him hear what the spirit of God saith - to the churches. !!





:-( :-o :-(


_________________
Bro Stephen

 2007/4/26 21:50Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re: " The Book Of Revelation " ( finally understood )

Quote:

sonofthunder wrote:
But the man child means something ??

But what and the wherfore will come to light ultimately and eventaully.

Mark it down .... saints !!



and...?


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2007/4/26 22:03Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: " The Book Of Revelation " ( finally understood )

Quote:
So i/we reject these calls to spritual pride and to elitism and to that of exclusivness.



sonofthunder,

You are caught by your own words here I am sorry to point out. Greater minds than yours have wrestled mightily with this book and have given far greater insight, that without having to revert to bitterness and your own particular elitism that pit's you 'above' others even if they [i]may[/i] be in error.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/4/27 0:12Profile
sonofthunder
Member



Joined: 2005/3/31
Posts: 419
Son Of Thunder i come from a land down under, due south at the bottom of your work globes

 Re:

No comment here - SUFFICE TO SAY

If im judged to be "bitter" - then let it stand.

Before the GREAT judge ... that stands at the door

Who is my judge anyway - and not no MAN !!

Thanks for your interest in the post - anyhow !


_________________
Bro Stephen

 2007/4/27 1:16Profile
sonofthunder
Member



Joined: 2005/3/31
Posts: 419
Son Of Thunder i come from a land down under, due south at the bottom of your work globes

 Re:

Sometimes people are caught up in various doctrines that promote "exclusivity" and "super army"

Take the JW'S FOR INSTANCE THEY TEACH the 144,OOO
from REVELATION CHAPTER 14 - meaning only tHEY themselves will be purged and saved ( as the only true redeemed ones - IN THE EARTH )

They may have modified that doctrine somewhat over the years ( here and there ) - but basically same belief - just different tones !!

Another well known movement from Indiana years ago that has since capitualated... taught "super army" and that where God's chosen "overcomers" - who will set "creation free" from it's groaning and it's travailing !

Still another well known movement from Kansas city also teaching "latter rain" and the "sons of God" movement - or alais (super army saints) ....which has for the most part been dispersed and their followers scattered abroad ... with (2) of their leading "prophets" found and "caught" to be living in gross sin.

Sometimes people get offended if you touch on their "pet doctrine" that they hold and espouse too - or if you bring an - EXPOSE TO THINGS UNSCRIPTURAL.

It ruffles feathers so tospeak and rattles cages, and so they themselves respond with colourful characterizations of what your supposedly guilty of. ( this behaviour and that attitude ) etc

The truth is known by those who stay with "topic" and contend with the issues discussed, and with-out resorting to characterizations - and the name calling.

If the person is guilty of the offending behaviour - then sobeit - the Lord of hosts will deal with them, and chasten them.

Basically their is a right and wrong way of dis-agreeing with people !!

But With me like Paul it's a very small thing that i should be judged of man - or of man's judgement - for we cannot even judge ourselves properly ( but in God ) therefore judging others by acrimony or characterizations - has to be (spot on) - lest we fall into temptation and a snare.

John the Apostle accused Diotrophes in 3rd John of malicious behaviour and of using pratting words against him and his company. Now either John has it "right" and Diotrophes is indeed guilty of the erring behaviour ( or ) God will deal with the apostle John - for false accusation and name calling ( it's called characterization ) is it not ?

Go figure !!


_________________
Bro Stephen

 2007/4/27 1:34Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: " The Book Of Revelation " ( finally understood )

Quote:

sonofthunder wrote:
Like many of you i have read the entire book of Revelation and its contents through from start to finish ...I well remember to this day - how that when he came to the half-way stage REVELATION CHAP 12( that being the birth of the Manchild ) he took a deep breath ... and swallowing down hard on his adams apple, he launched into it and proceeded to instruct the class on what this manchild then "represented" and the interpration - OF IT !! hmmmmm

And He leaning hard - and falling back on his theological background and training - and deciding to "stick" with the "traditional" and conservative view - that being the woman is Mary and the man child is "Jesus" being birthed.

All good and well: but this view has it's inherent problems and flaws ... for instance from Revelation and chapter four onwards - the book addresses "future issues" that are yet to come to pass.

A close look at how chapter four begins - reveals how John sees through (an open door) and is invited by the spirit of God ... to look "ahead" - and see how this great panaroma of events unfolds. ( with history made in advance ).

And besides all this - the (2nd half) of chapter twelve does not concur or "tie in" with the first half of the chapter ...if indeed it is Mary/and Jesus being born (that is to say in this symbolic form of understanding). Now Allow me to elaborate further. For instance the woman after the completion of giving birth ... then immediately flees into the wilderness - and is "fed" for exactly (1260 days ) during this moment in time. !!

So where and how do you see that in scripture -that mary and Joseph fled from Herod and it being "precisely ... for "exactly" 1260 days ??
But the man child must then mean something ??

But the what and the wherfore - will come to light both ultimately and eventaully.

To him that hath ...shall be given ...
And he shall have abundance !!

To him that hath ears to hear ... then let him hear what the spirit of God saith - to the churches. !!




Thunderation, Stephen!

You sound a bit frustrated, but I don't think it's bitterness. More like my Dad get's when things don't go well - tired and angry that he's wasted all the time....

Put with less frustration, the 1260 days is the latter half of the Tribulation!

And who is God going to protect from the evil dragon and his minions? Israel!!!

Or at least, so was my understanding. Nothing else matches with 1260 days of specific persecution of a woman - The Church of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, commonly known as Jews, though highly inaccurate, birthing a remnant, which must be protected from the Devil, in order to go into the Millenium.

It can't be us 'Chillens' of God - we're either raptured, dead, or in hiding in small groups, although how it is that any of us Christians get's past Lucifer and his merry little friends I haven't yet figured out when the Devil's got permission to persecute us all, to death, if necessary, and it will be.

So, if it's not us, and it's not the pagans, who would God protect? Only Israel, or a part of her.

Presumably, since the only safe place on earth during the Trib is in Petra and Bosrah (Over Jordan's way from Israel), again, presumably after the battle of Gog/Magog clears out 5/6's of the Palestinian/Arab/Russian confederation that comes down on Israel, and is routed by God, through Michael, the angel who protects Israel.

Otherwise, the Israeli's will have to sneak into Jordan, which they could do.

Now you know why I'm talking Gog/Magog on another thread - I'd like to prove this theory, but I'm not a scholarly scholar, just a regular one. (I know it, but I can't prove it...yet!)

Where is this information? All over the bible. Unfortunately, it's in bits and pieces!

Now, with this theory, however, I can read all of Revelation and it makes sense.

There is, of course, a hidden prophecy that will preumably come to light during the Millenium, since John was told to eat it. And no one knows for sure who Babylon is going to be - a church, a place, both who knows. Of course with the Roman Catholic Church getting all ecumenical on us, and now, pretty much controlling Italy at this point, it's starting to look like the old tried and true Holy Roman Empire bit. Edit(And the Anglicans getting all cosy with Rome, just at the time they 'happen' to be running out of oil in the North Sea.)End Edit.

Which is why I'm looking for info on Gog/Magog not being the kickoff of Armeggeddon, but the war that the Anti-Christ comes to power out of, after Michael stomps a local invasion, going after control of Israel's Oil (Inland) and Natural Gas (Offshore)(Found but not pumping yet.)

I really can't imagine China coming all the way to Israel, unless they want the oil and gas there as well as the Arab and Persian Countries they'll be rolling over, Euphrates dried up, and all, perhaps in that nasty heat in the Vial Judgements. You know, no rain for years in the area? (First half Trib, Witnesses: Choose two from Enoch, Moses, Elijah, Ezekial (all missing bodies on earth) can stop the rain - Elijah was good at that, and do all the other plagues ever mentioned in the Bible, plus some new ones, and flame throwers in their mouths. It would be interesting to see, but under those circumstances I'd be trying to get to Petra along with everyone else in the world that believes the Witnesses.

Problem is, you have to read all the Trib stuff out there, even the novels that are scripturally based, and then check and recheck the Bible, and even then, after you've lost the notes you didn't take, like I lost the ones I didn't take, except in my head, which is not photographic, except for content, I could be wrong.

I don't think I am, but I'll have to write a book to prove it, and I've got other stuff God wants me to do first.

Still, I quest on, I quest on.

By the way, Stephen, is it Steven or Steffun? I like to hear people's name right when I'm reading.

Hope that helps a little.

Blessings,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/4/27 6:37Profile
enid
Member



Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2653
Nottingham, England

 Re:

UniqueWebRev wrote:

Hope that helps a little.

Are you kidding?

I'm glad you know what you were talking about, because I'm not even going to pretend I understand you.

Oh well.

Back to Revelation 1v1.

God bless.

 2007/4/27 6:45Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Back to the Beginning

Oh, Enid,

How I would love to write that book!

Don't start in Revelations. Start where I did - with Hal Lindsey, The Left Behind Series (Reasonably accurate, although they never show the Devil I know, just some nasty guy with a lot of sweet talk, and good looks, and hardly any demons to help fight off the lusty, trusty, Post Trib Force!),Grant Jeffrey, Tim Le Hayes serious sudy of Revelation, his lesser study for non-serious Bible Scholars, (Still actually quite good), and all the other people with a Pre-Trib View - the others don't make sense in light of God protecting only the Remnant of the Israeli's that flee to the protected area, plainly spelled out in the Left Behind series, with suitable scriptures. I know - I've read all of them twice, and several over and over - there's some good preaching here and there after book 4 or 5. Or maybe it's 3 or 4.

Seriously, trying to understand Revelation without reading all, and I mean all, of all the junk out there, and I've done my best, and you have a lot of trouble picturing what I'm talking about.

Take all this stuff, ignore the trash, and look at the Scriptures. Good resource material for a long Bible Study. And with your Bible, you check their stuff to see if it makes sense, which, some of it does, which is why they are published, and I am not.

On the other hand, I haven't been writing about it for over 30 years. Reading it, studying it, but alas, not writing about it.

And Enid, the Left Behind movies....Yuck, compared to the books. In fact, hardly understandable without the Left Behind Novels, which are entertaining, if unlikely, in view of what the Devil is realllllly like. I know Him personally. Take my word for it.

Go to a second hand store, and pick them up on the cheap - I had to pay full price for the last 3 books, because I'm impatient, but that was a few years ago.

And His prequel on the Rapture, the Judgement of our works, his ideas on what our mansions will be like - very imaginative! And, at least to me, since I'm used to La Haye after all this time, fun to read about.


Love and Kisses,

Forrest

P.S. I'm allowed Love and Kisses because Enid and I are both Ladies!


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/4/27 7:18Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

sonofthunder,

It's one thing to critique somebody else's positions on the book of Revelation and show the error of their ways. However, unless you are going to put forth a positive interpretation to replace their erroneous interpretation, then you are entering into error yourself, as you are offering nothing edifying to the rest of the saints. And to get excited over hearing yourself talk is simply pride.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2007/4/27 8:58Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

If anybody wants some serious books on eschatology, that aren't all wild and confusing as this thread is, I highly recommend the following authors: David Baron, Adolph Saphir, George Ladd, and Art Katz. But before studying things pertaining to the end in detail, I highly recommend one be a well rounded Christian first, and be grounded in sound doctrine and victorious living. For without these elements, you will only get caught up in wrangling about words and things you don't understand, even though you make bold assertions that would make it look as if you did (see 1 Timothy 1), which will only lead to the ruin of your hearers.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2007/4/27 9:06Profile





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