I do enjoy these discussion because anytime brothers and sister exhort and challenge a particular doctrine we must evaluate the truth. I also echo the phrase, "Let God be true and each man a liar".
Amen, Jay. I agree with you 100%...
As to my interpretation of Jeremiah, what I am trying to say is that God can choose to forget our sin if He so chooses. Since Calvinists calling card is "God is Sovereign", then to insist that He cant forget our sins if He chooses to means He is not sovereign. He is limited.
The only limitations God has are the ones He imposes on Himself... such as giving man free will.
I can not buy into the theory that God created some people simply to go to send them to hell. It is inconsistant with God's nature, and it is inconsistant with 2 Peter 3:9, which says very clearly and without need for elaboration: [i]"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, [b]not willing that any should perish[/b], but that [b]ALL[/b] should come to repentance."[/i] (emphasis mine)
This verse can not be about the "elect" only because the implication here is that some will perish. Who? The unsaved. And it states clearly that God wishes that they wouldnt... it's not His will. But Calvinists insist that it IS His will. But Peter says it isnt... but Calvinists say it is... but the [b]Holy Spirit[/b] thru Peter says it isnt... but Calvinists says it is... but [b]GOD[/b] says it isnt...
And on this point Calvinists are at odds with the Bible. I will take the Bible over the Catholic John Calvin (who learned all this from the Catholic Jerome) any day.
By the way, Jay... have you checked out the sermon series on Calvinism that I posted yesterday? While I am not good at stating my position on this (yet), this teacher is.
I would love for you to listen to it, and let me know what you think.
| 2007/4/24 13:13|
I recall once that I took the exact same attitude on the subject of Catholicism a few years ago here. I wrote a missive to Krispy to the effect that we had worn the subject out. But I was wrong to do that. And I make a public declaration of that here. They were trying to shed light on a subject that I was more or less indifferent about. I got tierd of hearing about what I didn't care about. But Krispy cared about it and I did not respect that fact and I was wrong. I am terribly sorry for that and need to ask for forgiveness. I have occassionally tried to extend an olive leaf of encouragement to him in resitution- but that is not enough. So I am making my plea here and now as a formal apology for that reaction.
I responded to this on the other thread...
Love ya, Robert...
| 2007/4/24 13:17|
Krispy, I have posted this numerous times, but I don't know if you have seen it:
II Peter 3:9 is a beautiful verse that demonstrates the love of God.
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
Some people emphasize the words 'not willing' and say that God is so patient and not willing that any person in the world perish that he is waiting for all men to come to repentance. But this is not really what the verse is saying.
I affirm that the Lord does not delight in the death of anyone, but take a closer look at the verse.
To whom is God longsuffering? Us.
Who is the 'Us' referring to? The Beloved mentioned in verse 8. "But, beloved"
Who are the Beloved? The people Peter is addressing in his letter.
Verse 1 - "This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you."
To whom is Peter writing this letter? Those who come to a saving knowledge of Christ--Christians.
2 Peter 1:1 - "Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ"
But this is the second letter, what does the first say about the intended audience? 1 Peter 1:2 - "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ."
Peter is not saying in this verse that God is patient with all men hoping that every person comes to repentance. Peter is saying that the Lord is not slow in keeping his promise to his elect concerning his second coming. The Lord is longsuffering because he is not willing that anyone elected according to the foreknowledge of God should perish before the second coming and that all of the elect come to repentance.
Also, I would like your understanding of the two questions I posed earlier. They are:
Proginosko is the Greek word for Foreknowledge as translated in Romans 8:29. This word also means Foreordained as the KJV translates it in 1 Peter 1:20, "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,"
Do you agree that Proginosko can mean either Foreknowledge and Foreordained?
Krispy, your interpretation of Jeremiah 31:34 is dangerous because under your rules of interpreting scripture we run into a huge theological problem.
1 John 3:20, "For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things."
Does God know all things but has forgotten some things? Both cannot exist simultaneously.
I will also listen to those sermons when I have a chance.
| 2007/4/24 13:44||Profile|
Yea, see... this is what people do, especially in this debate. They take a very clear black & white verse and say "yea, but thats not what it means", or they "greek ya". You did both.
All I can say is I do not agree with you at all.
Next topic, please... I cant discuss this with you because no matter what scripture I use you're going to tell me that it doesnt mean what I think it does... and then pull out the greek.
So in the interest of brotherly love, I just will not debate this with ya, my brother. Trying to discuss this with someone who is going to inform me what the Bible "really means"... it's like nailing jell-o to the wall.
| 2007/4/24 15:35|
So in the interest of brotherly love,
This is one thing I appreciate about you brother, you constantly show the love of Christ.
We disagree, but this disagreement does not affect my respect for you. See you brother.
| 2007/4/24 16:11||Profile|
the problem of dealing with whether God has foreknowledge of and prearranges or ignores our sinful behavior is one the Bible will not clearly answer because it isn't supposed to answer this question, or all questions, for that matter.
there are so many verses that can be brough forth and so much confusion that can be wrought by applying them that the issue is best left alone.
i would prefer to stick with things more straightforward and clear.
25On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
26"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
27He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'[a]; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[b]"
28"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
29But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"
30In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35The next day he took out two silver coins[c] and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'
36"Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"
37The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."
Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."
| 2007/4/24 16:25|
We disagree, but this disagreement does not affect my respect for you. See you brother.
I can confidently say the same for you, Jay.
| 2007/4/24 17:10|
Sweden (Northern Europe)
Have you all realized the fact that we Christians are greatly privileged by the all knowing and almighty God; that He has given us a heart of flesh instead of a stony one, so that we can freely follow his commandments?
Therefore: if we had been living under the old covenant as Isralites we would have been predestined to be an adulterous generation (i.e. if we didnt belong to the few who God protected from and kept in accordance with his will).
Conclusion: It is better to be born today i.e. after Jesus death and resurrection than before he was incarnated and dwelt among us.
| 2007/5/7 9:22||Profile|