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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Predestination

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 Re:

Forrest,

i haven't been participating (much) on SI for the last three months, so i missed the discussion you refer to. what i would say is that even the discussion of what God knows and doesn't know is presumptuous to the level of constituting a sin. an ignorant one, yes., but a sin nonetheless.

we can only accept that God loves us and has the best intentions for us. that Jesus' sacrifice offers the blessing of Grace. this has to be enough and to argue over what God knows or doesn't know is a disgrace upon the gift of Life.

bub

 2007/4/24 11:35
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
At this point in this thread, it appears to those not passionately involved like a scriptural tennis match, and to my mind, dishonors God that you play with the scriptures so much, each trying to beat the other.



This is a judgment of motivation and has little basis in reality. I am trying to get the person to understand the truth of the scriptures on a subject that is of vital importance. The finality of Unconditional Election is that God is made out to be the Devil. The fact that it feels like a back and forth tennis match is beside the point. It takes God to superintend our minds to bring us into the light.

As I write I am trying to know the truth as much as I am convey the truth that I know. Iron sharpens iron. Just because the conversation does not fit your taste does not mean it dishonors God. Let God say what dishonors Him.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/24 11:35Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Please, stop the competition. Or does this have to go on with this subject week after week, month after month?

I've been on SI for only three months, and cannot escape the subject being raised over and over. Those who hold to foreknowledge will never give up their right to be wrong, and neither will those that hold to a desire to be able to say yes to Jesus, if that's all we do get to do.

You will not convince each other, and, although interesting occaisionally, which side we are on is not interesting all the time.

Frankly, enough is enough!



Frankly your opinion carries no more weight than anyone elses.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/24 11:37Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Jeremiah 31 speaks of God punishing sin in Jesus and therefore not holding the sins of Christians against them. God cannot make God forget things, it is just that God does not factor the sin to ones account.



I'm not trying to provoke an argument... but this is exactly what people do with scripture in discussions like these. Something is plain in black and white [i](for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more)[/i], so we explain to everyone why it doesnt mean what it says... it means something else.

Which is exactly why I shy away from this particluar discussion.

Jeremiah 31:34 says what it says, and it says it plainly. Your twisting it to mean something else. I wont play that game.

I love ya tho, bro...

Krispy

 2007/4/24 11:40
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

I hope that my words are not coming across in an unloving way. It is my intent to have a friendly discussion of a vital doctrine of scripture. At the end of the day, I know that someone can hold to conditional election and still be saved. It is edifying to discuss the Biblical truth and sharpen each other like iron.

I hold to unconditional election and I do not think it makes God out to be the devil. God views all men in their sinful state and does not have to have mercy on anyone. In fact, if God gave each and every person justice then we would all end up in hell. It is because God is loving and merciful that anyone is saved.

The question we need to ask is not "Why did God hate Esau?" the question we need to ask is "Why did God love Jacob?"

 2007/4/24 11:40Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
I'm not trying to provoke an argument... but this is exactly what people do with scripture in discussions like these. Something is plain in black and white (for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more), so we explain to everyone why it doesnt mean what it says... it means something else.



Krispy, you may shoot me for saying this :-o but not everything in scripture should be taken literally. (Don't misunderstand me, I do believe the is bible is inerrant and completely true.) What you are saying is that God will actually remove something from His memory. This is not the point of the verse, the point of the verse is that our sins will not be used against us on the day of judgment.

 2007/4/24 11:52Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I hope that my words are not coming across in an unloving way.



No no... not at all. Sorry if I gave that impression. I just disagree with how you seem to be massaging scripture to fit your doctrine.

Jay, you and I have a good history together on this forum, so please keep everything in that context when we do end up on opposing sides of a discussion, bro.

Krispy

 2007/4/24 11:53
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I've been on SI for only three months, and cannot escape the subject being raised over and over. Those who hold to foreknowledge will never give up their right to be wrong, and neither will those that hold to a desire to be able to say yes to Jesus, if that's all we do get to do.



Personally I have been on a break from the forums for several months. This is my first enguagement with the subject in a long time. My answers are not designed to win an argument but to bring an understanding. If I did not think the words had value I would not waste my time sharing them. I don't type 80 words per minute. And I certainly am not in the business of winning arguments. The desire to to come to an understanding together and see if one person can shed some light on the other that they may not have known before. I LEARN things in these discussions that are important to my Christian life. My life has been changed for the better as a result of many conversations in these forums. For folk just to pop in and start accusing us of things, in my opinion, is way off base. No body put a gun to your head and forced you to read through these arguments.

I recall once that I took the exact same attitude on the subject of Catholicism a few years ago here. I wrote a missive to Krispy to the effect that we had worn the subject out. But I was wrong to do that. And I make a public declaration of that here. They were trying to shed light on a subject that I was more or less indifferent about. I got tierd of hearing about what I didn't care about. But Krispy cared about it and I did not respect that fact and I was wrong. I am terribly sorry for that and need to ask for forgiveness. I have occassionally tried to extend an olive leaf of encouragement to him in resitution- but that is not enough. So I am making my plea here and now as a formal apology for that reaction.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/24 11:55Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Krispy, your interpretation of Jeremiah 31:34 is dangerous because under your rules of interpreting scripture we run into a huge theological problem.

1 John 3:20, "For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things."

Does God know all things but has forgotten some things? Both cannot exist simultaneously.

 2007/4/24 12:00Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Krispy and everyone else, I enjoy our discussions and my prayer is that I show everyone respect and love even though we don't see eye to eye on some of these issues.

I know for a fact that our salvation does not depend on whether or not someone is a Calvinist or Arminian or whatever. What matters is Jesus.

I do enjoy these discussion because anytime brothers and sister exhort and challenge a particular doctrine we must evaluate the truth. I also echo the phrase, "Let God be true and each man a liar".

God Bless you all.

 2007/4/24 12:08Profile





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