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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Predestination

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RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Who gave the believers to Jesus?



Wow this feels like a tennis match. ;-) The scripture says the Father gave them to Him. But we read on that 'they are thine'.

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezekiel 18)

All souls belong to God. This is why God is ultimately doing with His creation as He wills. But He has revealed to us the basis on which He will make choices concerning those that belong to Him. For some- He gave them to Christ. For others He gave them to the flames. But it is not just an arbitrary choice. It was a choice that He made based upon our response to His grace. If this were not true then there is no need to even understand the Gospel. No need to explain it. But God has left us a record in order that we might understand the basis upon which He will do with what is His; both the seed and those who are rejected.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/23 14:04Profile









 Re:

Quote:
our salvation does not depend upon what we do whether good or bad.



dude, you should not spread this evil notion.

it suggests that all we need do is claim the salvation of Christ at our deathbeds and everything will be okay between us and GOD.

this is a load of you know what and it is an evil idea.

bubbaguy

 2007/4/23 14:24









 Re:

Quote:
it suggests that all we need do is claim the salvation of Christ at our deathbeds and everything will be okay between us and GOD.

this is a load of you know what and it is an evil idea.



Tell that to the thief on the cross...

I would be careful, Bubba, what you call evil. You may find yourself calling God evil.

Krispy

 2007/4/23 15:17
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
it suggests that all we need do is claim the salvation of Christ at our deathbeds and everything will be okay between us and GOD.



There has at times been a reluctance to preach true justification by faith for fear of abuse of the doctrine and sin that grace may abound. But I think we have to preach the Gospel as it is given to us from the Apostles and not leave anything out. Some will conclude let us sin that grace may abound; but when they do we have to keep on in our presentation of the Gospel as Paul did. But if you notice Paul preached justification so firmly that one may conclude 'sin that grace may abound' if they did not have the whole story. If we try to micromanage the effects of the Gospel by understating something like justification or Eph. 2:8 or Titus 3:5 we are not fully presenting the Gospel. We have to preach and let God deal with the results. ;-)


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/23 15:40Profile
Mangan
Member



Joined: 2007/4/19
Posts: 161
Sweden (Northern Europe)

 Re:

Who could have realized that this topic would be so greatly discussed if It was not for God's foreknowledge that I would launch it a few days ago...

Magnus :-P


_________________
Magnus Nordlund

 2007/4/23 18:16Profile









 Re:

Krispy, yes, you are correct about being careful. i think i am being so. our thoughts, relationships, work and deeds are our proofing in life and if the love of Christ is not present in these, (while we wait expectantly for Christ to obey our call) it will be held against us in our accounting.

bub

 2007/4/23 19:26









 Re:

Does God know everything?

Krispy

 2007/4/24 10:19
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Does God know everything?

Krispy



That is what Omniscience means, Krispy, as if you didn't know that already.

Total knowledge, past, present, future, on our timeline and in eternity. But it doesn't mean He interferes with us in that timeline more than is absolutely necessary to get His perfect will done, while yet allowing His permissive will to act on earth. And that means allowing us to turn Him down, if we will have it so. And many do, a lot of them in my own family!

At this point in this thread, it appears to those not passionately involved like a scriptural tennis match, and to my mind, dishonors God that you play with the scriptures so much, each trying to beat the other.

There is no point that has not been discussed at least twice, so no one is interested in the scriptures anymore, just winning.

Please, stop the competition. Or does this have to go on with this subject week after week, month after month?

I've been on SI for only three months, and cannot escape the subject being raised over and over. Those who hold to foreknowledge will never give up their right to be wrong, and neither will those that hold to a desire to be able to say yes to Jesus, if that's all we do get to do.

You will not convince each other, and, although interesting occaisionally, which side we are on is not interesting all the time.

Frankly, enough is enough!

In Christ,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/4/24 10:45Profile









 Re:

Forrest, you and I are in agreement on this issue, and by the way... I agree with you assessment of the "tit for tat" debate that has occurred here. I have to admit, I've been caught up in that before too.

For those Calvinist... I would like to ask this, in reference to my question about "does God know everything?"...

Can God choose not to know some things? Such as...

Matthew 7:23 [i]And then will I profess unto them, [b]I never knew you[/b]: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.[/i]

...or...

Jeremiah 31:34 [i]...for I will forgive their iniquity, [b]and I will remember their sin no more[/b].[/i]

Also, let me ask... has everything ever done on the face of the earth been from the dictate of God? In other words, God controlled?

Krispy

 2007/4/24 11:04
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
For those Calvinist... I would like to ask this, in reference to my question about "does God know everything?"...



Yes.

Quote:
Can God choose not to know some things? Such as...
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
...or...
Jeremiah 31:34 ...for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.



Matthew 7 speaks of a relational knowledge that Jesus only has with those who abide in Him. Jesus still knows everyone, but not in the sense of Romans 8:29.

Jeremiah 31 speaks of God punishing sin in Jesus and therefore not holding the sins of Christians against them. God cannot make God forget things, it is just that God does not factor the sin to ones account.

Quote:
Also, let me ask... has everything ever done on the face of the earth been from the dictate of God? In other words, God controlled?



God does not tempt, God does not force people to sin. God does however use the mistakes people make to bring glory to His name. See the story of Joseph and his brothers in Genesis 50:21, "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today."

We see this dynamic between evil done by men (and they are held responsible for) and God using this wickedness to bring good.

Krispy, I am glad you are in this discussion because I have a question for you.

Proginosko is the Greek word for Foreknowledge as translated in Romans 8:29. This word also means Foreordained as the KJV translates it in 1 Peter 1:20, "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,"

Do you agree that Proginosko can mean either Foreknowledge and Foreordained?

 2007/4/24 11:33Profile





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