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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Predestination

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RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Therefore the only difference between myself and my brother is something good that he did, which was believing in Jesus.



If it is to be suggested that man's response to God in faith is either 'good' or 'works' I do not contend. There is something that God has required man to do in the salvation of his/her soul and that something is [i]faith[/i]. It may good that a man responded rightly but God is not saving the man because he is 'good' or did something 'good' but because he responded rightly in faith.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/23 10:14Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
But what does the scripture say about election? Romans 9:11, "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;"



They were not yet born therefor it cannot be said to be by birthright. They had done neither good or evil therefore it is not given to those who are 'good'. It is not because we inherited salvation or earned salvation it is by grace that we are saved through faith.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/23 10:17Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Election occurs before a person is even born and it includes actual persons being elected before they are even born. Another example is in Romans 8:29, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Election is more than a 'how' it is a 'whom', For whom He did foreknow.



The parallel to this passage is Ephesians 2:9. We are His workmanship created [u]in Christ Jesus[/u] unto good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Whether or not God foreknew who would be in Christ does not change the process by which the Seed are counted as the Seed (i.e. the elect are elected). It is not an arbitrary decision but one in which a person responds in faith and comes to baptism into Christ. It is 'in Christ; that we have all the riches that belong to The Seed (The Elect). Christ is 'The' Seed. We are in him and are counted for the seed.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/23 10:21Profile









 Re:

Anyone got any tylenol?

Krispy

 2007/4/23 13:09
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Anyone got any tylenol?



:-) I'l listening to the messages on Calvinism from your link.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/23 13:17Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
God chose to call and we chose to answer. We respond to the contact He initiates. I am not saving we went looking for God and found Him. I am saying He called and we answer. Our answer determines whether or not we will be in Christ or not.



Let me stop right here. Does God call and we not answer? I ask you to answer considering Romans 8:29-30, "29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Everyone called is justified. This is not reading into the verse, it is taking the verse at face value. There is a logical progression in these verses as follows:
1. God foreknew certain people
2. Those God foreknew He also predestined.
3. Those God foreknew and predestined He also called.
4. Those God foreknew and predestined and called He also justified.
5. Those God foreknew and predestined and called and justified He also glorified.

 2007/4/23 13:22Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
If this is true the preacher is telling lies by suggesting that whosoever will can come and drink of the waters of life freely.



When the preacher says, "Whosoever will" he is telling the truth because he is affirming that salvation is for all who desire Christ and all who are being called by Christ. This is not a lie. It is God who works in us to will and to do his good pleasure.

 2007/4/23 13:24Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
It may good that a man responded rightly but God is not saving the man because he is 'good' or did something 'good' but because he responded rightly in faith.



Here is my point, it is good that man responds in faith. But, the bible is clear that the 'good' is not the basis of our receiving salvation. God chose us apart from anything good He knew we would do...that includes faith. God did not look through history to see who would respond in faith and then elect those. If this is true then God would be basing His election on something good we did.

The truth is that God chose us when we were fallen and dead in our sins. God had mercy on us not because of anything we do. The basis for our salvation is God's mercy alone.

We do respond in faith, faith is the channel through which we receive the salvation, but it is not the basis for our election. If it was, it would void the biblical definition of election.

You position forces you to say that faith is not a 'good thing that we do', but in fact it is a great thing we do.

 2007/4/23 13:30Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Everyone called is justified.



Then how do you reackon with:

And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [u]For many are called, but few are chosen.[/u] (Matthew 22)

Many are called but few are chosen . Few have the necessary garment. It is not enough merely to be called as those who arrived at the wedding were 'called'. They also needs to be chosen. The chosen were those who had the wedding garment. This is clearly a reference to those that are 'in' Christ. But then we have an interesting and important third step:

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. (Rev. 17:14)

So the progression is called + chosen + faithful.








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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/23 13:30Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
The parallel to this passage is Ephesians 2:9. We are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Whether or not God foreknew who would be in Christ does not change the process by which the Seed are counted as the Seed (i.e. the elect are elected). It is not an arbitrary decision but one in which a person responds in faith and comes to baptism into Christ. It is 'in Christ; that we have all the riches that belong to The Seed (The Elect). Christ is 'The' Seed. We are in him and are counted for the seed.



Are you saying that God ordained works for those in Christ to do, but did not ordain anyone to do them?

 2007/4/23 13:33Profile





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