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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Total Depravity & Entire Sanctification

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RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
According to His wisdom He heals us from the works of Satan. He heals us from the corruption of this world.



It seems that in the Old Testament God primarily used wisdom to teach the [i]wisdom of God's requirements[/i] with the hope that man would see the wisdom of living a righteous life. The way of the transgressor is hard. Yet, even at that we find Israel repeatedly not 'getting it.'

In the New Testament as 'sons' we are chastened for our profit, that we might be partakers of His holiness. I think that we have the learning of the commands and then the chastening process when those commands are not obeyed. The objective is that folk would yield the peace-able fruit of righteousness. So I see chastening as a major aspect of this in the NT. If a 'son' goes against the teaching (which is a representation of God's character)- chastening awaits.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/5/2 1:01Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
The basic question is: who do we choose to be instruments of?



This is really just asking who is our father? But the other question is, if a person is tempted by sin how could they be considered a child of God if God cannot be tempted with evil? How could a child of God find pleasure in sinning knowing the behavior is contrary to a son?


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/5/2 1:08Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Why not use Scripture to illustrate...


I thought the accounts of Peter, Mary and the man with the withered hand [u]were[/u] scripture. :-o


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/5/2 1:19Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Now I have to ask in what manor of speaking are we referring to. Would that be the written word of God as the revelation of His will (logos) or would it be when God speaks His word directed to us? (rhema) I guess what I am asking is whether or not the revelation of God's will itself contains within it the power to obey?


The idea of 'rhema' has been hijacked by the power and prosperity circus but it deserves to be reclaimed. Revelation comes in at different levels. The Bible contains a lot of information, accurate information but the 'truth' does not set us free... wait for it...“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” (John 8:31-32 KJVS)It is important to quote this verse in its entirety. It does not teach that the 'truth shall make men free', it teaches that the truth makes disciples free.

It was addressed to some who had 'believed' but their faith was of the kind referred to in John 2:23ff It was 'faith' without personal allegiance to Jesus Christ. God cannot build on this kind of faith. The 'making free' is the culmination of several other features expressed in John 8.

1. Only by continuing in the word spoken to us by Christ can we be his disciples.
2. Only his disciples know (ginOskO also means 'recognise') the truth
3. Only truth revealed personally by Jesus Christ to his disciples (those rightly related to him) sets his disciples free.

I knew a preacher in the UK who used to say that the scripture was like the dehydrated 'word of God' and it always needed the 'water of the Spirit' to reconstitute it in its original power. You may not like the illustration but I think there is truth in it. Truth is much more than facts. Facts set no one free. How many addicts know the facts?

If we see 'truth' in the scripture we have a duty to pursue it in prayer and faith. If the scriptures are available to us we have a duty to search them, to consider what they say and to bring that discovery to God in personal response.

rhema is utterance. Man does not live by bread alone but by the words which are being uttered by God. Matt 4:4 is 'every rhema proceeding (present tense) from the mouth of God'. I love the Bible but transforming words must come from the mouth of God; they must have breath/spirit in them.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/5/2 1:37Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4790


 Re:

Brother Robert wrote:

Quote:
So I see chastening as a major aspect of this in the NT. If a 'son' goes against the teaching (which is a representation of God's character)- chastening awaits.



This precept of chastening is in the OT also...

Proverbs 3:

11 My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor detest His correction;
12 For whom the LORD loves He corrects,
Just as a father the son in whom he delights.
13 Happy is the man who finds wisdom,
And the man who gains understanding;
14 For her proceeds are better than the profits of silver,
And her gain than fine gold.
15 She is more precious than rubies,
And all the things you may desire cannot compare with her.
16 Length of days is in her right hand,
In her left hand riches and honor.
17 Her ways are ways of pleasantness,
And all her paths are peace.
18 She is a tree of life to those who take hold of her,
And happy are all who retain her.

Psalm 119

66 Teach me good judgment and knowledge,
For I believe Your commandments.
67 Before I was afflicted I went astray,
But now I keep Your word.
68 You are good, and do good;
Teach me Your statutes.

71 It is good for me that I have been afflicted,
That I may learn Your statutes.
72 The law of Your mouth is better to me
Than thousands of coins of gold and silver.

75 I know, O LORD, that Your judgments are right,
And that in faithfulness You have afflicted me.

Job 36

7 He does not withdraw His eyes from the righteous;
But they are on the throne with kings,
For He has seated them forever,
And they are exalted.
8 And if they are bound in fetters,
Held in the cords of affliction,
9 Then He tells them their work and their transgressions—
That they have acted defiantly.
10 He also opens their ear to instruction,
And commands that they turn from iniquity.
11 If they obey and serve Him,
They shall spend their days in prosperity,
And their years in pleasures.
12 But if they do not obey,
They shall perish by the sword,
And they shall die without knowledge.
13 “But the hypocrites in heart store up wrath;
They do not cry for help when He binds them.
14 They die in youth,
And their life ends among the perverted persons.

Paul always prays for the brethren that they grow in understanding and wisdom...

Col. 1:9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; 12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

Prov. 9:10 “The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom,
And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

Jesus is the Holy One...

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/5/2 2:29Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4790


 Re:

Sorry Brother...

Quote:
I thought the accounts of Peter, Mary and the man with the withered hand were scripture.



I was focused on the nature of a sinner...and my point was to show that a sinner can recieve the things of the Spirit...for a time...

But there comes a time where God, due to their unbelief, turns them over, removes His influence in man and thus man becomes hopelessly lost to the corruption that finds it source in Satan...

In Christ
jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/5/2 2:32Profile









 Re:

Quote:

RobertW wrote:
Quote:
Do you believe that the Holy Spirit teaches man to know righteousness?



Yes. But I think that the word of God has to be the primary means by which righteousness is taught.

Quote:
Do you believe the spirit of Satan teaches man to know evil?



Ananias and Sapphira were said to have had their hearts 'felled' by Satan to lie to the Holy Spirit. So I would have to answer, yes.




I know many folk who know not Christ yet are compassionate towards others? Is compassion a thing of righteousness or unrighteousness? If we say yes then we must conclude man is indeed capable of doing somethings on his own without outside assistance from God; Jesus had to have something else in mind when, in John, He said we can doing nothing on our own, wouldn't you have to agree?

 2007/5/2 5:40









 Re:

Quote:

RobertW wrote:
Quote:
The basic question is: who do we choose to be instruments of?



This is really just asking who is our father? But the other question is, if a person is tempted by sin how could they be considered a child of God if God cannot be tempted with evil?



Jesus was tempted.

Quote:
How could a child of God find pleasure in sinning knowing the behavior is contrary to a son?



Temptation can lead to sin if you allow it. Your question should read: How do we sucessfully come against it? Clue: What did Jesus, as a man, possess that is now given to the children of God for their progress into son-ship?

 2007/5/2 5:50
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4790


 Re:

Brother Ron wrote:

Quote:
It is important to quote this verse in its entirety. It does not teach that the 'truth shall make men free', it teaches that the truth makes disciples free.

It was addressed to some who had 'believed' but their faith was of the kind referred to in John 2:23ff It was 'faith' without personal allegiance to Jesus Christ. God cannot build on this kind of faith. The 'making free' is the culmination of several other features expressed in John 8.

1. Only by continuing in the word spoken to us by Christ can we be his disciples.
2. Only his disciples know (ginOskO also means 'recognise') the truth
3. Only truth revealed personally by Jesus Christ to his disciples (those rightly related to him) sets his disciples free.



Amen.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/5/2 6:34Profile









 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
Quote:
Now I have to ask in what manor of speaking are we referring to. Would that be the written word of God as the revelation of His will (logos) or would it be when God speaks His word directed to us? (rhema) I guess what I am asking is whether or not the revelation of God's will itself contains within it the power to obey?


The idea of 'rhema' has been hijacked by the power and prosperity circus but it deserves to be reclaimed. Revelation comes in at different levels. The Bible contains a lot of information, accurate information but the 'truth' does not set us free... wait for it...“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” (John 8:31-32 KJVS)It is important to quote this verse in its entirety. It does not teach that the 'truth shall make men free', it teaches that the truth makes disciples free.

It was addressed to some who had 'believed' but their faith was of the kind referred to in John 2:23ff It was 'faith' without personal allegiance to Jesus Christ. God cannot build on this kind of faith. The 'making free' is the culmination of several other features expressed in John 8.

1. Only by continuing in the word spoken to us by Christ can we be his disciples.
2. Only his disciples know (ginOskO also means 'recognise') the truth
3. Only truth revealed personally by Jesus Christ to his disciples (those rightly related to him) sets his disciples free.

I knew a preacher in the UK who used to say that the scripture was like the dehydrated 'word of God' and it always needed the 'water of the Spirit' to reconstitute it in its original power. You may not like the illustration but I think there is truth in it. Truth is much more than facts. Facts set no one free. How many addicts know the facts?

If we see 'truth' in the scripture we have a duty to pursue it in prayer and faith. If the scriptures are available to us we have a duty to search them, to consider what they say and to bring that discovery to God in personal response.

rhema is utterance. Man does not live by bread alone but by the words which are being uttered by God. Matt 4:4 is 'every rhema proceeding (present tense) from the mouth of God'. I love the Bible but transforming words must come from the mouth of God; they must have breath/spirit in them.



I fully agree with this. John 2.23 is a perfect example of the need for insight.

Taking this whole thing out a step further: Since we know that all scripture is "God breathed"; full of the knowledge of Himself and therefore His word to His children for their admonition, when we don't "get it"; when we don't receive that knowledge, whose fault is it?

And is this not the great need for the Pentecostal experience per Acts 2?

 2007/5/2 6:36





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