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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Total Depravity & Entire Sanctification

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RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
The work of faith was demonstrated by Abel who was the first prophet. He choose to listen to the Father of heaven and rejected the father of this world. Since the fall of man, this choice has been given to all men.

Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.



So you are saying that circumcision of the heart is more of conscious attitude of wanting to reject the world and serve God?


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/5/1 8:26Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

This repeating question about whether a sinner can obey God or whether his sin nature makes such obedience impossible. Let me illustrate..

Men who try to walk on water sink; this is their nature. But one man was commanded to walk on water and on the strength of that walk he countermanded the pattern of his nature. If he had not walked it would have been disobedience. When God speaks everything changes as regards ability or lack of it. When God speaks withered arms can stretch out, although it is in the nature of a withered arm that it cannot stretch out.

The angel said 'no word of God is powerless' and Mary said 'Let it be unto me according to thy word', although it was quite contrary to the nature of reproduction.

Man is constitutionally unable to work righteousness on his own account, but he can obey God when God speaks. Even the likes of Lazarus can hear God when he speaks and can obey.


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Ron Bailey

 2007/5/1 13:04Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
This repeating question about whether a sinner can obey God or whether his sin nature makes such obedience impossible....Man is constitutionally unable to work righteousness on his own account, but he can obey God when God speaks. Even the likes of Lazarus can hear God when he speaks and can obey.




I really like the way you put this.

And yes, he can, but it takes a lot of practice in my experience. How much I wish it were something easy to be learned as an adult, and one steeped in sin to boot!

Blessings,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/5/1 13:53Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Man is constitutionally unable to work righteousness on his own account, but he can obey God when God speaks. Even the likes of Lazarus can hear God when he speaks and can obey.



Now I have to ask in what manor of speaking are we referring to. Would that be the written word of God as the revelation of His will (logos) or would it be when God speaks His word directed to us? (rhema) I guess what I am asking is whether or not the revelation of God's will [i]itself[/i] contains within it the power to obey?


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/5/1 14:03Profile









 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
This repeating question about whether a sinner can obey God or whether his sin nature makes such obedience impossible. Let me illustrate..

Men who try to walk on water sink; this is their nature. But one man was commanded to walk on water and on the strength of that walk he countermanded the pattern of his nature. If he had not walked it would have been disobedience. When God speaks everything changes as regards ability or lack of it. When God speaks withered arms can stretch out, although it is in the nature of a withered arm that it cannot stretch out.

The angel said 'no word of God is powerless' and Mary said 'Let it be unto me according to thy word', although it was quite contrary to the nature of reproduction.

Man is constitutionally unable to work righteousness on his own account, but he can obey God when God speaks. Even the likes of Lazarus can hear God when he speaks and can obey.



Absolutely, if you are implying man can't save himself by his own righteousness. ...Otherwise history is full of people who lived rioghtous lives that God blessed.

 2007/5/1 14:54
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3686
Ca.

 Re:

Isa 55:11 So shall My Word be that goeth forth out of My Mouth: it shall not return unto Me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.

I think this is pretty plain, when it comes to Who does to who first. When will man see that without God man is nothing. With God man is what God will prosper him in what He wants, not what man thinks he deserves or can even accomplish. He has birthed His Own Son in us that we would accomplish what God wants us to prosper in, and that is son's for the Father's House which He chose us to be before the foundation of the world ever began. God's Plan to have son's in His house.

Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Perfected for the Father's House, not earth.

Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

What is man without God? Nothing, not even a vapor or memory.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/5/1 22:56Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4790


 Re:

Brother Robert asked:

Quote:
So as a child of the devil was Cain 'taught' to murder or did it come naturally? Was it a 'teaching' from Satan or did Cain simply act out the nature of his father who was a murderer from the beginning?



Do you believe that the Holy Spirit teaches man to know righteousness?

Do you believe the spirit of Satan teaches man to know evil?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/5/1 23:13Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4790


 Re:

Brother Robert wrote:

Quote:
So you are saying that circumcision of the heart is more of conscious attitude of wanting to reject the world and serve God?



Throughout Scripture we are given examples of God speaking to man. Those who obey His commands are taught and nutured by His Holy Spirit to do the things which seperate us from what we once hoped for in this world. According to His wisdom He heals us from the works of Satan. He heals us from the corruption of this world. As we grow from a child to a young man to a father in the faith, He empowers us to discern both good and evil. He empowers us to overcome the spiritual attacks of the devil. He empowers us to glorify Him. This work is brought about by the image of His Son in us. The Light of life that is spoken of in Job 33 is the sum total of His predestined work in those who live by faith, who hear His voice.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/5/1 23:20Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4790


 Re:

Brother Ron wrote:

Quote:
This repeating question about whether a sinner can obey God or whether his sin nature makes such obedience impossible. Let me illustrate..



Why not use Scripture to illustrate...

Jhn 8:31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: [but] the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.


A sinner does not continue on in His word. Yet for a time, he does abide in the house.

In like manner we are given the example of the Corinthians. They had been given all things pretaining to Christ yet Paul said that they were not able to know the things of the Spirit for they still chose to live according to the flesh.

1Cor. 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?

These who choose to not to continue on in the word that was planted in them suffer in the bondage of sin...look to the outworkings of this bondage...envy, strife, and division.

The apostles asked the Lord how should we pray...and Jesus ended the prayer in this way...

Matthew 6:

12 And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

God since the fall of Adam has enabled man to know good and allowed man to know evil. It is we who will be judged according to what Paul wrote in Romans 2:

5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

The basic question is: who do we choose to be instruments of?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/5/1 23:26Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Do you believe that the Holy Spirit teaches man to know righteousness?



Yes. But I think that the word of God has to be the primary means by which righteousness is taught.

Quote:
Do you believe the spirit of Satan teaches man to know evil?



Ananias and Sapphira were said to have had their hearts 'felled' by Satan to lie to the Holy Spirit. So I would have to answer, yes.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/5/2 0:51Profile





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