SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Looking for free sermon messages?
Sermon Podcast | Audio | Video

Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Total Depravity & Entire Sanctification

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 Next Page )
PosterThread
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Don't have to ignore it....Jesus wasn't born when speaking of the OT in this...neither was Paul for an explanation of things that has caused such great division in the Body of Christ. What actually happened, is what I am after and WHY?



Where would you like to begin? The purpose of this thread has been in a sense to answer whether or not we are come into this world with a Sinful nature. Entire Sanctification in my mind has to deal with the Sin nature problem.

The Old Testament is loaded with story after story of a people who kept drifting away from God in spite of repeated Divine interventions. The prophets did not show up because the folk were seeking God. Even Israel drifted and fragmented because of Sin. The problem with humanity is that they needed to be born again of the Spirit. Perhaps you have noticed that The True Church has sought to follow God whole heartedly in spite of it's imperfections. There was a radical shift in how folk responded to God after Pentecost.

To me, a short sided understanding of the sinfulness of man in deed and nature is a recipe for undermining the work of the Cross. I was thinking of this yesterday and was a bit unnerved about it. The enemy is forever trying to downplay the significance of what Christ accomplished at the Cross. The more we act like we didn't need what He did the less what He really did matters in our eyes. It was [u]MY[/u] sins that He died for on the Cross. It was for my healing of Sin sickness that He took the stripes upon His back. It was my punishment that caused Him to cry out, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAST THOU FORSAKEN ME?" I deserved to be forsaken. But He took my place. He became Sin for us who knew no Sin. For a moment in time He identified with my Sinful condition- that He might take it down into death liberating me from it. He put on my vesture that I might put on His. He took my Sin that I might freely receive His righteousness. This is more than what is in my opinion a blasphemous half baked attitude that says it was just an illustration of how bad sin is and how much God loves us. There were some real and genuine things that took place in propitiating the sins of humanity. I truly believe that men are going to be ashamed who undermined the work of the Cross through their teachings striving to prove that man did not need what was accomplished at the Cross. I don't believe we fully understand even how Sin sick we really were and how desperate for an atonement we really was. Only eternity will reveal it. Jesus is the LAMB THAT WAS SLAIN. He was not slain because no one really needed it; they [i]utterly[/i] needed what was accomplished at the Cross; every minor detail.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/30 8:49Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Where would you like to begin? The purpose of this thread has been in a sense to answer whether or not we are come into this world with a Sinful nature. Entire Sanctification in my mind has to deal with the Sin nature problem.



Beginning with my last post would seem the easiest, doncha think?

 2007/4/30 8:55
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Stubborn and stiffnecked. Nothing ever prevented them from coming to God except they desired to do as Adam did, i.e., their own thing. Now, was Adam depraved when he transgressed?



I'm sorry Ormly but I have no idea what point you are trying to make in distinction to what I have said. Adam was not depraved when he transgressed. Sin entered once he committed the act. Through one man Sin entered the world and death by sin so that death passed upon all me for all have sinned. This was Adam. In similar fashion Christ the last Adam lived righteously and for those that are [i]in Him[/i] they share in His history as once when we were in the[i]first Adam[/i] we shared in his.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/30 10:11Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Was not God drawing him? or perhaps the way of the cross can be seen as something God was after from the very beginning?



I will not concede this point. It leads to the concept that God wanted man to fall in order to send Christ to die for our sins as merely a demonstration of His love. This makes the Cross into nothing more than God showing man how much He loved Him. Though it was the greatest demonstration of love one could show- it was more than that. Christ is the price paid to remove the offense between us and God. He is the propitiation for our sins. Our sins had separated us from God. I cannot believe that God would 'pull back' from man in order that they might sin- so He could show them His love by forgiving them. The reality has to be far more involved and complicated than that. God has shown Himself to operate with man in real time and respond as man responds to Him. I don't believe God decreed that man would sin. He knew He would sin- but that is not the same thing.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/30 10:22Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
What actually happened, is what I am after and WHY?



I think you are wanting to know why all of this happened. Why did God create man in the first place if He knew He would fall. Why did He create angels if He knew some would rebel.

If it is true that Satan stood in the presence of God as the Anointed Cherib that covers then there is no way one could say that the reason Satan sinned was because God 'pulled back' or did not draw Him. He was right in the very presence of God and fell from that lofty place. In my mind there is no way God can be charged with Satan's actions or Adam's. God is not the author of Sin no matter how crafty one arrives at that conclusion. God is not the Father of Lies.

What happened in Genesis 1-3 is sketchy at best and we can know nothing of God or this history than what He has chosen to reveal. We have enough information to have a basic grasp of beginnings; but we cannot take a 50K jpeg file (as it were) and expect it to have the resolution of a 8x10 photograph. The more we blow Genesis 1-3 up the more it distorts and the more men try to use their own personal 'filters' to fill in the gaps. But the picture then gets made in the image of each man's lusts. A good commandment for us in these questions is; "Thou shalt not speculate!" We run the risk of trying to answer questions God intended to remain in obscurity.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/30 10:36Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Beginning with my last post would seem the easiest, doncha think?



What post are you referring to? We have been criss-crossing a bit.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/30 10:36Profile









 Re:

Quote:

RobertW wrote:
Quote:
Stubborn and stiffnecked. Nothing ever prevented them from coming to God except they desired to do as Adam did, i.e., their own thing. Now, was Adam depraved when he transgressed?



I'm sorry Ormly but I have no idea what point you are trying to make in distinction to what I have said. Adam was not depraved when he transgressed. Sin entered once he committed the act. Through one man Sin entered the world and death by sin so that death passed upon all me for all have sinned. This was Adam. In similar fashion Christ the last Adam lived righteously and for those that are [i]in Him[/i] they share in His history as once when we were in the[i]first Adam[/i] we shared in his.



Trust me, I know all about the elementary teachings of Jesus Christ.

My question to you, since you agree Adam was NOT depraved yet he did this: He yielded himself to an outsde influence with results following because....whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? Romans 6:16 (KJV) And he did so from a knowledge of God as no other had. What was it in Adam, created in him, that God would not-could not come against? Second question: Does that which was created in him ever change for the born again?

 2007/4/30 10:47









 Re:

deleted by ormly..duplicate

 2007/4/30 10:51









 Re:

Quote:

RobertW wrote:
Quote:
Beginning with my last post would seem the easiest, doncha think?



What post are you referring to? We have been criss-crossing a bit.



This was my last to you but you have already answered it.. Lets move on keeping our agreement in mind.

 2007/4/30 10:52
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Rookie's:I have been highlighting the grace of God given by the Holy Spirit and the corruption of Satan brought about by his domain through his spirit.



I think that at least on two levels Satan is directly involved in temptations.

1 Chron 21:1

And Satan stood up against Israel, and [i]provoked [/i]David to number Israel.

The word for provoked is the Hebrew [i]shayith[/i] and it comes from a root that means [i]briars[/i]. It means to 'prick' or by implication to seduce. This is Satan at work. But what is another 'source' of briers?

Heb 6:8

But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Rookie referred earlier to the harlot in Proverbs 6. She was a 'briar' to the young man that seduced him to sin. She was acting as an agent of the devil- the tempter. It has been said that men sin- but devils tempt to sin. I think it is worth considering. [i]People[/i] are a great source of sins in our day- tempting one another to do evil.




_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/30 10:56Profile





©2002-2019 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy