SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Total Depravity & Entire Sanctification

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 Next Page )
PosterThread
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Brother Robert wrote:

Quote:
I do not believe that a person is depraved in such a way that they cannot obey God. I believe the presence of Sin effects man bending them towards sinning; but not forcing them to sin.



I see it in a different light...

As we grow up under the influence of Satan, our hearts are hardened because we sin more and more in the ways of the devil. Our ears choose not to hear what the Holy Spirit says because of our growing knowledge of evil. The Holy Spirit is all around us, we have a conscience. Yet Scripture teaches that God at some point gives men over to their corruption.

Read carefully what Paul teaches in this section of Scripture...

Rom. 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Do you hear what Paul teaches of man's foolish hearts growing in darkness?

In Christ
jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/4/30 0:50Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:


Romans 2:

4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

Here Paul teaches that God makes known to man "the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering" which is given by God to man in the hope that it "leads you to repentance." This precept represents the "knowledge of good" that is spoken of in Genesis.

Then Paul points to what man is held responsible for...

5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

As one grows in the ways of Satan, one is held responsible for the hardness of one "impenitent heart."

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/4/30 2:23Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I believe that a person can come to God if the Father draws them.



Then what was it in the case of Adam. Was not God drawing him? or perhaps the way of the cross can be seen as something God was after from the very beginning?

Stay with the OT.






 2007/4/30 6:06
enid
Member



Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2660
Nottingham, England

 Re:

Ormly wrote: Stay with the OT Robert, Jeff.

So we ignore the New Testament?

God bless.

 2007/4/30 6:15Profile









 Re:

Quote:

enid wrote:
Ormly wrote: Stay with the OT Robert, Jeff.

So we ignore the New Testament?

God bless.



Don't have to ignore it....Jesus wasn't born when speaking of the OT in this...neither was Paul for an explanation of things that has caused such great division in the Body of Christ. What actually happened, is what I am after and WHY?

 2007/4/30 6:18
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Brother Ormly wrote:

Quote:
Don't have to ignore it....Jesus wasn't born when speaking of the OT in this...neither was Paul for an explanation of things that has caused such great division in the Body of Christ. What actually happened, is what I am after and WHY?



Just for clarity, the Scriptures that I have been quoting from Paul teach about all men in all generations. I frequently site Paul because most people do not know the OT well enough or they do not desire to know the story of the remnant in the OT.

I have been highlighting the grace of God given by the Holy Spirit and the corruption of Satan brought about by his domain through his spirit.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/4/30 6:38Profile









 Re:

Quote:

rookie wrote:
Brother Ormly wrote:

Quote:
Don't have to ignore it....Jesus wasn't born when speaking of the OT in this...neither was Paul for an explanation of things that has caused such great division in the Body of Christ. What actually happened, is what I am after and WHY?



Quote:
Just for clarity, the Scriptures that I have been quoting from Paul teach about all men in all generations. I frequently site Paul because most people do not know the OT well enough or they do not desire to know the story of the remnant in the OT.



That's good except to understand Paul one must have a good knowledge of the OT otherwise, how can one realize what Paul is inferring/implying or otherwise attempting to get across to his readers? For instance Romans 3.10 has historically been taken to mean something it does not say, i.e., man could not turn to God unless God did something special to draw him. Knowing what the OT reveals is that that is wrong agenda ridden understanding/doctrine people have taken to themselves that has had castastophic results.



 2007/4/30 7:14
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Rookie's: As we grow up under the influence of Satan, our hearts are hardened because we sin more and more in the ways of the devil. Our ears choose not to hear what the Holy Spirit says because of our growing knowledge of evil. The Holy Spirit is all around us, we have a conscience. Yet Scripture teaches that God at some point gives men over to their corruption.



I think this is true also. Yet it seems for Cain he had no excuse like that. Who was the sinful influence in his life that taught him to murder?


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/30 8:11Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
That's good except to understand Paul one must have a good knowledge of the OT otherwise, how can one realize what Paul is inferring/implying or otherwise attempting to get across to his readers? For instance Romans 3.10 has historically been taken to mean something it does not say, i.e., man could not turn to God unless God did something special to draw him. Knowing what the OT reveals is that that is wrong agenda ridden understanding/doctrine people have taken to themselves that has had castastophic results.



Romans 3:10 is a quote from Psalm 14

Ps 14:2-3

2 The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.

3 They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;
[u]There is none who does good,
No, not one.[/u]

God looked as it were through the window of heaven down upon humanity and found not one that fit His definition of seeking after God. We may have our own, but He has His and it is His that matters. From God's perspective there was not one that sought Him.

The full evidence of this fact is clear from a cursory read of Genesis alone- not to mention a people that had the Law of God, sacrificial system, prayer shawls w/tzit tzit, the Tabernacle, frontlets, feast days and a host of other things specifically designed to [i]remind[/i] the people of God. There is an elaborate infrastructure in the Old Testament designed to keep God ever before their eyes. On top of that they were supposed to speak of Him rising up and lying down to their children, etc. Reminders, reminders, reminders. Perhaps God asked a simple question; "If I took all this away would they even remember me? How long would it be before I was far from them"

The fact is they in most cases did not want God when they saw Him. They saw the mountain of fire and wanted to flee in terror. They saw Moses' face and put a vail on it. They did not want to seek God's face as did Moses. Moses wanted to 'see' God- but could not and live. The people did not as much as want the residue of God before their eyes. And this is a people called out to be a light in the world! What are we to make of those who have not but the light of creation and conscience as their guide?







_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/30 8:27Profile









 Re:

Quote:

RobertW wrote:
Quote:
That's good except to understand Paul one must have a good knowledge of the OT otherwise, how can one realize what Paul is inferring/implying or otherwise attempting to get across to his readers? For instance Romans 3.10 has historically been taken to mean something it does not say, i.e., man could not turn to God unless God did something special to draw him. Knowing what the OT reveals is that that is wrong agenda ridden understanding/doctrine people have taken to themselves that has had castastophic results.



Romans 3:10 is a quote from Psalm 14

Ps 14:2-3

2 The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.

3 They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;
[u]There is none who does good,
No, not one.[/u]



Thats true and it is also from Ps 53

Quote:
God looked as it were through the window of heaven down upon humanity and found not one that fit His definition of seeking after God. We may have our own, but He has His and it is His that matters. From God's perspective there was not one that sought Him.



A condition of man to be sure

Quote:
The full evidence of this fact is clear from a cursory read of Genesis alone- not to mention a people that had the Law of God, sacrificial system, prayer shawls w/tzit tzit, the Tabernacle, frontlets, feast days and a host of other things specifically designed to [i]remind[/i] the people of God. There is an elaborate infrastructure in the Old Testament designed to keep God ever before their eyes. On top of that they were supposed to speak of Him rising up and lying down to their children, etc. Reminders, reminders, reminders. Perhaps God asked a simple question; "If I took all this away would they even remember me? How long would it be before I was far from them"

The fact is they in most cases did not want God when they saw Him. They saw the mountain of fire and wanted to flee in terror. They saw Moses' face and put a vail on it. They did not want to seek God's face as did Moses. Moses wanted to 'see' God- but could not and live. The people did not as much as want the residue of God before their eyes. And this is a people called out to be a light in the world! What are we to make of those who have not but the light of creation and conscience as their guide?



Stubborn and stiffnecked. Nothing ever prevented them from coming to God except they desired to do as Adam did, i.e., their own thing. Now, was Adam depraved when he transgressed?







 2007/4/30 8:48





©2002-2019 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy