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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Total Depravity & Entire Sanctification

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RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Was Adam also depraved that caused him to transgress; that was the cause of his tempation?



Satan proved that one need not be a sinner to sin. He was created perfect and yet at some point sin was found in him. He became the father of Sin.

Adam and Eve also proved that one need not have a nature to sin to commit sin. Yet a cursory look at Genesis demonstrates how Sin, once it entered the human race sent us on a colission course for destruction.

Sin entered man and then man had to be evicted from the Garden. Why? Lest they eat of the Tree of life and live forever- as sinful humanity. Death also entered with Sin. Death is an enemy like unto Pharoah- God uses it for His purpose. It was through death that Christ destroyed him that had the power of death- that is- the Devil. Christ's death to Sin at Calvary liberated us from bondage to Sin. At death slaves are free from their master's. If we are in Him we are dead to our old slave master Sin. Sin in this way is personified. Deeds and actions are master's of nothing. But before we were in Christ- we were slaves to Sin itself.

When Sin entered man he became capable of the most horrible of crimes. A man killed his own brother and then got smart with God over it! Imagine that! Even the animals, wind and waves know their Master. What had entered the human race that would create such defiance? Jesus rode into town on a mule that had not been tamed. How? It knew it's Master. But man is at enmity with God. The rocks can praise- but man shakes his fist. What makes a man so utterly evil that his/her behavior defies explanation? Not even the most brutal of animals do the deeds some humans do. I don't think we have seen what man is capable of in our generation. But when given the chance- man crucified God.

Men did not enter into the school of Satanism 101 and then earn a triple doctorate in wickedness. Men simply used their own minds to seek out inventions and communicate with devils and commit abominable acts that defy reason. Animals don't do that; why do humans? How did the thoughts of men become only evil continually until God had to implement more [i]measures[/i] to slow the progression of wickedness? Was there a school to learn such evil? Who taught them but their own deceitful and wicked heart that was past finding out?

No, man needs more than repentance. He needs more than to change His mind and get in step with the laws of God. He needs more than to cease yielding to the sensibilities and live a life of selfless benevolence. Men need an encounter with God that yields a new spirit and heart. A transformation into a New Creature. A baptism into Jesus Christ- and a receiving of the Holy Spirit. And a new heart that causes them to walk in the ways of God and a Spirit that works in them both to will and do His good pleasure.

The Sin Nature never made anyone sin. But the wretchedness of it God would not leave on us forever. Who shall deliver me? From what? What are you yelling about Paul? Your were fine before! you walked in the law blameless and lived in all good conscience before God and men. You even persecuted Christians ignorantly in unbelief! What need thee of a change? O wretched man? But the LAW of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me FREE from the law of Sin and death. what ever it was that I didn't have- I sure thank God I'm free from it! (Romans 8:1)




_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/28 22:12Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Choose

Robert, extremely well said.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/4/28 22:31Profile









 Re:

I confine my comment to this issue to the acts of man in the OT when submitting this, ok?

Part of what I read from you is that only a righteous man will turn to God. Perhaps another way of expressing it is: It is a righteous act when he/man does.

Is that a fair assessment?
Here is a passage that will prove quite interesting in this:

[size=medium]The deplorable state of the wicked[/size]

[b]A Psalm of David[/b]

Psalms 36:1-12 (KJV) 36: The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes. For he flattereth himself in his own eyes, until his iniquity be found to be hateful. The words of his mouth are iniquity and deceit: he hath left off to be wise, and to do good. He deviseth mischief upon his bed; he setteth himself in a way that is not good; he abhorreth not evil.

[size=medium]The excellence of God's steadfast love[/size][

Thy mercy, O LORD, is in the heavens; and thy faithfulness reacheth unto the clouds. Thy righteousness is like the great mountains; thy judgments are a great deep: O LORD, thou preservest man and beast. How excellent is thy lovingkindness, O God! [b]therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of thy wings[/b]. They shall be abundantly satisfied with the fatness of thy house; and thou shalt make them drink of the river of thy pleasures. For with thee is the fountain of life: in thy light shall we see light. O continue thy lovingkindness unto them that know thee; and thy righteousness to the upright in heart. Let not the foot of pride come against me, and let not the hand of the wicked remove me. There are the workers of iniquity fallen: they are cast down, and shall not be able to rise.

 2007/4/29 6:26
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:

RobertW wrote:
Quote:
Was Adam also depraved that caused him to transgress; that was the cause of his tempation?



Satan proved that one need not be a sinner to sin. He was created perfect and yet at some point sin was found in him. He became the father of Sin.

Adam and Eve also proved that one need not have a nature to sin to commit sin. Yet a cursory look at Genesis demonstrates how Sin, once it entered the human race sent us on a colission course for destruction....Christ's death to Sin at Calvary liberated us from bondage to Sin....But before we were in Christ- we were slaves to Sin itself....Was there a school to learn such evil? Who taught them but their own deceitful and wicked heart that was past finding out?No, man needs more than repentance. He needs more than to change His mind and get in step with the laws of God. He needs more than to cease yielding to the sensibilities and live a life of selfless benevolence. Men need an encounter with God that yields a new spirit and heart. A transformation into a New Creature. A baptism into Jesus Christ- and a receiving of the Holy Spirit. And a new heart that causes them to walk in the ways of God and a Spirit that works in them both to will and do His good pleasure....But the LAW of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me FREE from the law of Sin and death. what ever it was that I didn't have- I sure thank God I'm free from it! (Romans 8:1)




Yes, for without grace, without Jesus in us, we can't combat both our nature, the nature of others in the world, and the wiles of Lucifer.

Though I repent day and night, the devil can still set me up, still trick me into sin I wasn't aware of, nor planned to do.

Yes, the Holy Spirit convicts me of sin, and I repent. And the next minute, I turn around, and I am sinning again.

I cannot combat this. Only Christ in me can, and only the Holy Spirit working in me can bring me to walk in the Spirit, that the fruits of the Spirit actually have begun to spring up in my life.

Technically, all things are allowed me, through grace. But all things are not good for me.

[color=993300]1 Cor. 6:9. Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10. Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
12. All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
13. Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.
14. And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.


Romans 3: 24. Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25. Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Romans 5:1. Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2. By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3. And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4. And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5. And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
6. For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.[/color]

How can we, for one bit of repentance, ever gain what Christ gained for us?

Yes, we need to keep striving onward, but we will always fall short of perfection, which is what Hamartia means, as derived from Hamartano.

Strong's Number: 264
Transliterated: hamartano
Phonetic: ham-ar-tan'-o

Text: perhaps from 1 (as a negative particle) and the base of 3313; properly, to miss the mark (and so not share in the prize), i.e. (figuratively) to err, especially (morally) to sin: --for your faults, offend, sin, trespass.

Strong's Number: 266
Transliterated: hamartia
Phonetic: ham-ar-tee'-ah

Text: from 264; a sin (properly abstract): -- offence, sin(-ful).


Yes, we need to repent and ask Jesus to reign in our lives, and pray that the Holy Spirit come on us, that we may be taught of Him, but after that, no matter how I try, if I try in my own strength not to sin, I cannot, repeat, cannot refrain from it.

Yes, it gets less and less in me, as the Holy Spirit teaches me, and the fruit of His teaching begins to work in me.

But to think that one sin, deliberate or not, if unrepented of would deny you salvation?

For what then did Christ die for, if our petty sins, no matter how much a breaking of the Law, caused His Blood not to matter!

Yes, deliberate, persistant, continuous sin, that we are doing on purpose, to grieve the Holy Spirit on purpose, oh then, yes, you are in great danger.

But at that point does one even hear the Spirit whispering to your heart to turn around, and begin again?

I would we could totally refrain from sin, but that will not be until we are in a glorified body.

Oh, but to think that grace would not save you from one day's sins? Especially, hard headed and hard hearted creatures that we are, often sin unawares, and it takes the Holy Spirit to show us where we have sinned!

Please, please, do not forget the grace that Christ died to give us, the Blood that continually washes us from sin.

[color=993300] 15. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18. Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21. That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.[/color]

And if we were to sin once or twice on that last day before Jesus came. Do you doubt His love that much? All things are permitted us, even though they are not good for us, and if we remain long in ignorance of the devils tricks, will not grace cover that?

For I have been confused, turned around on myself, and find, that six weeks later, only then does the Holy Spirit speak to me of that sin, and I am furious that the Evil One can still so trick me, playing me like the fool I can be.

[color=993300]2 Cor 12: 9. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.[/color]

Not that I might sin for the sake of sin, but because we are weak vessels. But if I rely on anything that I do, even repentance, I am abandoning Christ, and His grace.

Did I not sin for over 25 years after taking Christ to my bosom, yet flirted daily with the devil, and I am still with Christ? Oh, of course I reap in my body what I have sowed, but my soul, Jesus fought for all those years, while I studied Christ, yet sinned and sinned and sinned.

Is this not the grace of God, that He gave us Christ because we could not do anything without Him? That He gave us Christ, because, without Him, His purifying blood, and His measureless grace, we would still be lost?

Oh, be careful, be very careful, that you do not attempt salvation in any strength of your own. For without Christ, the devil has you in charge, and works in you.

Grace alone can save us at the beginning of our walk with Jesus, and at the end of our walk in this life also.

Yet even with grace, stay in the love of Christ, to the best of your ability, yet remembering, your ability is very little.

Blessings,

Forrest



_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/4/29 11:35Profile









 Re:

:-o

 2007/4/29 11:56
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:

Ormly wrote:
I confine my comment to this issue to the acts of man in the OT when submitting this, ok?

Part of what I read from you is that only a righteous man will turn to God. Perhaps another way of expressing it is: It is a righteous act when he/man does.

Is that a fair assessment?
Here is a passage that will prove quite interesting in this:

[size=medium]The deplorable state of the wicked[/size]

[b]A Psalm of David[/b]

Psalms 36:1-12 (KJV) 36: The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes. For he flattereth himself in his own eyes, until his iniquity be found to be hateful. The words of his mouth are iniquity and deceit: he hath left off to be wise, and to do good. He deviseth mischief upon his bed; he setteth himself in a way that is not good; he abhorreth not evil.

[size=medium]The excellence of God's steadfast love[/size][

Thy mercy, O LORD, is in the heavens; and thy faithfulness reacheth unto the clouds. Thy righteousness is like the great mountains; thy judgments are a great deep: O LORD, thou preservest man and beast. How excellent is thy lovingkindness, O God! [b]therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of thy wings[/b]. They shall be abundantly satisfied with the fatness of thy house; and thou shalt make them drink of the river of thy pleasures. For with thee is the fountain of life: in thy light shall we see light. O continue thy lovingkindness unto them that know thee; and thy righteousness to the upright in heart. Let not the foot of pride come against me, and let not the hand of the wicked remove me. There are the workers of iniquity fallen: they are cast down, and shall not be able to rise.



Apologies, Ormly.

I was speaking to the trend of the thread, and seconding RobertW.

Your quotes, though excellant in themselves, don't talk about grace, or salvation, nor on how Finney teaches, or mis-teaches, though I am the last person to talk to about Finney. I don't know him well enough yet.

You said: Part of what I read from you is that only a righteous man will turn to God. Perhaps another way of expressing it is: It is a righteous act when he/man does.

Is that a fair assessment?


I don't think so, mostly from my own experience, in that I was not the least righteous before turning to God, and very little righteous thereafter, for year and years.

Yet, with Lucifer on my left, and Jesus on my right, they both talked to me for years.

Fortunately, Lucifer is very bad as getting people to say much that isn't a knockoff, then twisted a little, from God. And in sudying Jesus, and hearing a lot about Him, and how to be like Him, and then having Him take part in saving my life, by changing my life, I learned enough to kick the devil away.

But the trend of the majority of the thread was so much towards repentance as a work, without which one cannot be saved, is untrue.

It hurt me to think that someone, after being saved, and living for God, could be thought to be lost for one or two sins. And since humans sin as easily as they breathe, we don't get away from it completely until we are dead.

On the other hand, your quote about mercy was just what I was getting at.

Thy mercy, O LORD, is in the heavens; and thy faithfulness reacheth unto the clouds. Thy righteousness is like the great mountains; thy judgments are a great deep: O LORD, thou preservest man and beast. How excellent is thy lovingkindness, O God! [b]therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of thy wings[/b]. They shall be abundantly satisfied with the fatness of thy house; and thou shalt make them drink of the river of thy pleasures. For with thee is the fountain of life: in thy light shall we see light. O continue thy lovingkindness unto them that know thee; and thy righteousness to the upright in heart. Let not the foot of pride come against me, and let not the hand of the wicked remove me. There are the workers of iniquity fallen: they are cast down, and shall not be able to rise.

I am not of the once saved always saved crowd. I know you can grieve the Holy Spirit away. But on the other hand, I also know that Jesus does a great job of fighting the devil, and forgiving our sins.

Blessings,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/4/29 13:20Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

There is no doubt the scripture uses the word 'righteous' to speak of men prior to the New Testament. Perhaps Job was the first? Certainly we could trace this down through the centuries.

You will recall that Paul gave a long list of his qualifications in Philippians:

Phil 3:4-10

Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, [u]and do count them but dung[/u], that I may win Christ,

9 [u]And be found in him[/u], not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

This is a wonderful contrast between what we can muster as righteousness and the righteousness of Christ that we receive if we have been found [i]in Him[/i]. Finney more or less denied that what Paul is saying here is even possible. Can a man have transferred to his account the righteousness of another? I sure hope so because if not Paul is in a heap of trouble! Because he completely and utterly renounced his own righteousness. If there be no transfer of Christ's righteousness to Paul then what is going to save a man in that great day who obviously forsook his own? He knew that no matter how 'righteous' he was that it was not worthy to be compared to the righteousness of Christ that we receive having been found [i]in Him[/i]. He counted his own works of righteousness as dung that he might win Christ. Notice this is not addition. This is not Paul's + Christ's. This is Paul forsaking his own and standing firmly in Christ's.






_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/29 16:56Profile









 Re:

To help make a point, keep in mind Adam committed and unrighteuos act before sin ever altered mankind. If he could commit an unrighteuos act before and then afterwards, in his fallen state of being, commit righteous acts pleasing to the Father, what does that say about the sin issue, some would have it, that places all of mankind into a totally depraved condition whereby "unregenerate" can't come to God of his volition?

 2007/4/29 21:15
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
To help make a point, keep in mind Adam committed and unrighteuos act before sin ever altered mankind. If he could commit an unrighteuos act before and then afterwards, in his fallen state of being, commit righteous acts pleasing to the Father, what does that say about the sin issue, some would have it, that places all of mankind into a totally depraved condition whereby "unregenerate" can't come to God of his volition?



I believe that a person can come to God if the Father draws them. I believe this to be a universal phenomena. God's Spirit will not always strive with man (Genesis 6). I believe God is dealing with folk by His Spirit utilizing what ever means the person has at their disposal. They have a certain amount of 'light' and if they respond rightly to that light- they will receive more light. If not then they are accountable to God for the light they had.

I do not believe that a person is depraved in such a way that they cannot obey God. I believe the presence of Sin effects man bending them towards sinning; but not forcing them to sin. When God says 'do' we can and we must. But I don't want to confuse the issue as there is still Sin that has to be dealt with. Some commands are pleasant to our ears. But as Jesus ministered He manifested the law in such a way that brought out the rebellion of men's hearts and laid bare their need for John 3:3. Just because one is able to suppress the symptoms of a disease does not mean the disease is gone. Controlling symptoms is not the healing that we received by His stripes or what we read of the people seeing with their eyes, hearing with their ears, understanding with the hearts, and being converted and [i]healed[/i].

The people in Jesus' day had all but gotten the symptoms of the indwelling Sin under control by fencing in the laws; but our Lord came by with a [u]test[/u] that could reveal the disease. He knew the right 'orders' to give that would reveal rebellion in any heart He met. It was not about being able to obey 7 laws, 10 laws, 613 laws or a whole Oral tradition (so-called) that added grievous laws on top of laws. It was a matter of obeying God [i]from the heart[/i] no matter what He asked. The Law was a burden to the people.


Acts 15:10-11

10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?

11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.
(NIV)

How could it be a burden to do the will of God? Was this our Lord's experience also? No. His 'meat' was to do the will of the Father. He walked in the Law blameless. He could do it and do it joyfully because He was [i]Spiritual[/i] even as the Law was [i]Spiritual[/i]. But we were carnal and sold under Sin. This is why we can never come under the Law in a fleshly fashion.

Once born again it become our meat also is to do the will of the Father. It's now our desire. Not a burden- but a blessing. It's what brings us fulfillment. So that we can say with the Lord that it is our 'MEAT'- it is our sustenance; what meets that innermost desire. But the reason all of this is possible is because we are 'in' Christ. We have been baptized into Jesus Christ so that His is experience is our experience. The truth that is in Him becomes the truth that is in us.



_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/29 22:21Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4791


 Re:

Brother Robert wrote:

Quote:
There is no doubt the scripture uses the word 'righteous' to speak of men prior to the New Testament. Perhaps Job was the first? Certainly we could trace this down through the centuries.



According to Scripture, Abel preceded Job...

11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/4/30 0:42Profile





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