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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Total Depravity & Entire Sanctification

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RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
And what does the devil appeal to? He appeals to the lust of the eye, lust of the flesh, or the pride of life. He appeals to the emotions or physical desires, he appeals to the sensibilities, to the natural appetites.



Thou shalt not covet;' and [u]the[/u] sin having received an opportunity, through the command, did work in me all covetousness -- for apart from law sin is dead. : And I was alive apart from law once, and the command having come, [u]the[/u] sin revived, and I died; and the command that is for life, this was found by me for death; (Romans 7:7-10 YLT)

Sin received an opportunity by the command to work in Paul all manor of covetousness that without a command would have been unable to work in him. Sin revived when the command came. It 'surfaced' like a whale or a submarine. The commandment offered the opportunity to rebel. And because of that- though it was ordained to be of life - it caused death. Why? Because the carnal mind is at enmity with God and cannot be made subject to the law of God. The carnal mind rebels against the command simply because God commanded it. This is why folk stumbled over the Sabbath fresh out of Egypt. They wanted to do their will instead of God's - and this was an active desire or as we might say [i]rebellion[/i]. I don't believe it was a simple difference in preference. Who would not want a day off with pay?

The fact that the enemy appeals to our natural desires etc. to entice to sin is all true. But there is something more sinister under the surface that has to be dealt with and it is [u]the Sin[/u] that entered and corrupted man's nature. Man took on the mindset of Satan. Man began to savor [u]not[/u] the things that be of God- but of Adam. This is a disposition that we can resist, but must ultimately be delivered from through the Born Again experience. We need a supernatural transformation resulting in a new creature. Not an upgraded version of the old; but NEW.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/26 16:30Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3686
Ca.

 Re:

Yes, Robert

We need a new Life and a new spirit and that Spirit is the Spirit of "Christ in you the Hope of Glory". A whole new creation race of people that are in Christ by the New Birth.

A new creature in Christ, a Christ One, first called Christians in Antioch: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/4/26 17:13Profile









 Re:

Many translations will translate Paul as saying in Romans 7 "Sin that dwelleth in me". Theologians have used this verse to say that sin is other then a moral choice of the will, but sin is some substance that lodges itself in your personality, and forces your will. That there is some "sin" that causes and forces all "sins".

But if sin were some "stuff" other then a moral choice, what is it? Is it a gas, solid, or a liquid? Can we put it under a microsope and see it? Can we have this sin surgically removed? Only what is physical is hereditary, our souls come directly from God. So unless sin is physical, we cannot inherit it from our parents.

But that scripture that theologians use, to prove some sort of physical or constitutional sin, does not mean quite that. In the greek, it could be translated "the depravity that dwelleth in me". Paul was describing the battle between his convicted mind and his corrupted, or depraved body.

Only what is voluntary can be sin. Nothing that is involuntary can be sin. We cannot be held accountable for something we did not have control over. Sin is not your physical body, sin is the volition of your will.

But we do inherit a depraved body with aggrevated lusts, that influence us to sin but does not cause us to sin. The depravity that dwells in us is a cause of temptation, but it is not sin itself.


Quote:
Because the carnal mind is at enmity with God and cannot be made subject to the law of God.



Romans 8:7 must be taken in context of Romans 8:4-6.

The whole context is talking about walking after the flesh, to "fulfill" the lusts of the flesh.

In the greek, to be "carnally minded" means to be "fleshly purposed".

[b]Carnally = fleshly[/b]

[b]Minded = purposed[/b]

Likewise to be "spiritually minded" is to be spiritually purposed.

Verse 5 is key: "for they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh". To be carnally minded is to "mind the things of the flesh" or to be purposed in fulfilling the lusts of the flesh.

The carnal mind does not mean the physical mind. It is not referencing your physical body at all. You do not deserve death and hell because of the body you were born with. But rather, the carnally minded cannot please God, because God cannot be pleased with those who are ultimately purposed to please the flesh.

Those who are carnally minded, or fleshly purposed, are subjected to the law in a sense and are not subjected to the law in a sense.

[b]Subjected = Obligated[/b]

They are subjected in the sense that though they are disobedient, they are obligated to be obedient. It is not that those who are carnally minded, or fleshly purposed, have no law that they will be judged by. They will be judged by the law of love because they are obligated, or subjected to, the law of love.

[b]Subjected = Obeying[/b]

But those who are carnally minded, or fleshly purposed, are not subjected to the law in the sense that they are not in submission to the law of God. They are selfish, or serving themselves, and therefore are in violation of the law of love which requires you serve God and others.

Sinners are obligated to keep the law of love, but sinners are not obeying the law of love. They live by the law of selfishness - serving self instead of God.

So it is true that the carnal mind is not subjected, and neither indeed can be, because of the nature of the law. The law requires love. But the carnal mind, or to be carnally minded, is the opposite of love. Therefore the carnal mind can never be obedience to the law, because being carnally minded is condemned by the law.

To say that the carnal mind can not obey the law of God is equivalent to saying that sin does cannot fulfill the law of God. The law of God forever condemns sin, so sin can never be fulfilling the law.

Also, it would be equivalent to saying "love cannot be condemned by the law". Why? Because the law requires love and therefore the law cannot condemn love.

And so the law forever condemns being carnally minded, so being carnally minded can never fulfill the law. Those who are carnally minded cannot obey the law, because while they are purposed after the flesh, they are disobeying the law!

But if a sinner stops "minding the things of the flesh", if he yeilds to the Spirit of God and ceases to live "to fulfill the lust of the flesh", if he surrenders his will or heart to God and serves God instead of self, then he is subjected to the law in the sense that he obeys the law, because love fulfills the law.

 2007/4/26 17:27
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4790


 Re:

Brother Jesse wrote:

Quote:
But we are wholly responsible for our actions because we have freedom of will.



I agree.

We have two paths according to Scripture...

To grow in the knowledge of good...

Pro 1:20 ¶ Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:


Pro 1:21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, [saying],


Pro 1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?


Pro 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.


And the other path...to grow in the knowledge of evil.

Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

The first path is given freely to us by...

Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.


Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


Jhn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.


Jhn 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.


Without the Holy Spirits work, we all who were once in darkness could not comprehend the light.

God Bless
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/4/26 20:53Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3686
Ca.

 Re:

But if a sinner stops "minding the things of the flesh", if he yeilds to the Spirit of God and ceases to live "to fulfill the lust of the flesh", if he surrenders his will or heart to God and serves God instead of self, then he is subjected to the law in the sense that he obeys the law, because love fulfills the law.

"It is no longer I who live but Christ who live in me"

1Cr 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.


Christ is not carnally minded, if we have the Mind of Christ and are renewing our mind to the Mind of Christ we are no longer carnal but spiritual and mind the things of the Spirit if the Spirit of Christ be in you.

Romans 8:9-16 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Romans 12:1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

This is what previews our presenting our bodies a living sacrifice Holy and acceptable to God.

Romans 11:33-36 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been His counsellor? Or who hath first given to Him, and it shall be recompensed unto Him again? For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

What are His judgments? Are we judged on our own merits or are we judged on the merits of Christ? "Be ye perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect"

Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Jam 1:4 But let patience have [her] perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

It is all done in Christ:::: "THEREFORE I BESEECH YOU".

The Law has no effect on Christ that is in us. That is why we are dead to the Law and alive unto God in Love.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Living unto God by the Christ in us: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/4/27 18:43Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3686
Ca.

 Re:

"""But if a sinner stops "minding the things of the flesh", if he yeilds to the Spirit of God and ceases to live "to fulfill the lust of the flesh", if he surrenders his will or heart to God and serves God instead of self, then he is subjected to the law in the sense that he obeys the law, because love fulfills the law."""




"It is no longer I who live but Christ who live in me"

1Cr 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.


Christ is not carnally minded, if we have the Mind of Christ and are renewing our mind to the Mind of Christ we are no longer carnal but spiritual and mind the things of the Spirit if the Spirit of Christ be in you.

Romans 8:9-16 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Romans 12:1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

This is what previews our presenting our bodies a living sacrifice Holy and acceptable to God.

Romans 11:33-36 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been His counsellor? Or who hath first given to Him, and it shall be recompensed unto Him again? For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

What are His judgments? Are we judged on our own merits or are we judged on the merits of Christ? "Be ye perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect"

Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Jam 1:4 But let patience have [her] perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

It is all done in Christ:::: "THEREFORE I BESEECH YOU".

The Law has no effect on Christ that is in us. That is why we are dead to the Law and alive unto God in Love.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Living unto God by the Christ in us: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/4/27 18:44Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
But that scripture that theologians use, to prove some sort of physical or constitutional sin, does not mean quite that. In the greek, it could be translated "the depravity that dwelleth in me". Paul was describing the battle between his convicted mind and his corrupted, or depraved body.



If that is true then we are destined for hell because of depravity because the same word for sin [i]hamartia[/i] (strongs 266) in Romans 7 is used in Romans 6:23:


For the wages of [u]sin[/u] is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The word is used some 175 times in the NT and every one in the KJV translates it as [i]sin[/i].

Quote:
You do not deserve death and hell because of the body you were born with. But rather, the carnally minded cannot please God, because God cannot be pleased with those who are ultimately purposed to please the flesh.



I don't believe anyone is going to hell because of a sinful body. But it is certain that the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5 is a picture of the evidence of the Holy Spirit dwelling in a person and this is what distinguishes a Christian from a non-Christian. It has nothing to do with how righteous a person can be in conforming to the Law. There seems to be an undercurrent of belief in Finney's works that if a person would reform their ways and get in step with the word then we will call that regeneration. It's all just a bunch of mental exercises in which a person changes thei mind through a process of seeing the error of their way and the wisdom of God's way, or some other similar processes. But regeneration is performed by the Holy Spirit as we submit to
God and could never be done on our own. It is more than Him convincing me to change myself- it is me yielding to Him in changing me miraculously.

Likewise the works of the flesh are manifest also and they are the 'fruits' of the person who is under the dominion of the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience (the Devil). This is not to say they are 'forced' to sin any more than a believer is 'forced' to yield the fruit of the Spirit. Christians do not forfeit control of their life in the sense that some take depravity. they can still choose to sin if they so wish.







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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/27 19:55Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3686
Ca.

 Re:

Quote: ". It is more than Him convincing me to change myself- it is me yielding to Him in changing me miraculously"


It is the old me, Satan as my father because Adam chose all mankind's spirit by him choosing to believe Satan's lie and hearkening to the voice of his wife. To the new me, an exchanged life in Christ because I believe what God the New Father said about His Only Begotten Son Jesus Christ.

It is me yielding to the Spirit of Christ that is the New me and renewing my mind to the Mind of Christ. In other words, me renewing me by the Mind of Christ the is in me. I am now a new creature in Christ. Knowing this is the fruit of the Spirit, becoming all this:
Galatians 5:22-26 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Those that are His do live in the Spirit, Now I must renew I to also walk in the Spirit.

2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision (law) availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, (no law) but a new creature.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:


A Law unto ourselves by the Christ that is in us.

Praise God, In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/4/27 23:09Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
But we do inherit a depraved body with aggrevated lusts, that influence us to sin but does not cause us to sin. The depravity that dwells in us is a cause of temptation, but it is not sin itself.



Paul refers to the 'law of Sin' that is in his members. Members is used in reference to the physical body (yield your members to God, etc.) and members of the Body of Christ. Members of my body include an eye or hand that it had been better that 'one member' should perish than the whole body be cast into hell and 'we are members in one Body (even Christ).' Now either the law of Sin exists in his physical members or in the members of the Body of Sin- which is representative of all unbelievers under the headship of Adam. Those who are 'in Adam'.

But Paul refers to the 'body of this death.' Why is it a body of death? Because within it is the 'law of sin'. If this is true then our problem is the attachment of a [i]law[/i] within our members - the law of sin. If this is true then we run the risk of being dualists- unless there is some other explanation for why a law of sin could exist in our members that we can only be made free by- but by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. This would mean that the 'other law working in him' that brought him into captivity to the law of sin is what is dealt with but by the law of the Spirit of life. In any case there is still a definite breaking away from the law of sin and a definite [u]need[/u] to be [i]made free[/i] from it. Paul could not get free in himself he could only observe within himself what was happening- but Romans 8 dealt with it. This is more than mere repentance. He was grieved at how he was evidently. He desired to do what was right but had found no power to do it as he wished. This is why I continue to affirm that though a person can do what God commands there is still something that has to be dealt with in unbelievers that is more than repentance and faith. It is an act of God .

We cannot measure our experience now against that of a sinner and say that what I can do he/she can do [i]in the same way[/i]. We can do as we do because we are born again and have to the revelation of scripture to help us understand what we were before we were a new creation in Christ. This is where I have always believed Finney went wrong. He tried to understand the life of a sinner in the light of his born again experience. Just my opinion. You can't do that because they are not new creatures as the born again.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/28 9:12Profile









 Re:

Quote:

RobertW wrote:
Quote:
But we do inherit a depraved body with aggrevated lusts, that influence us to sin but does not cause us to sin. [b]The depravity that dwells in us is a cause of temptation, but it is not sin itself.[/b]



Was Adam also depraved that caused him to transgress; that was the cause of his tempation?

 2007/4/28 13:52





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