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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Total Depravity & Entire Sanctification

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rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4790


 Re:

Brother Ormly,

In another thread, How to get the most out of reading the Bible, Brother Christian wrote:

Quote:
i love that 119 psalm, one man said to me, every new Christian should read that psalm every day until it is a reality in their life's.



Does a born again believer have a more intense life than what Psalm 119 teaches?

In Christ
jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/5/4 2:23Profile









 Re:

Quote:

rookie wrote:
Brother Ormly,

In another thread, How to get the most out of reading the Bible, Brother Christian wrote:

Quote:
i love that 119 psalm, one man said to me, every new Christian should read that psalm every day until it is a reality in their life's.



Does a born again believer have a more intense life than what Psalm 119 teaches?

In Christ
jeff



Wow! That's a great question! I have to say yes and then more because PS119 is now a personality within the new born. Read it along with John 17 and Romans 8
The Psalm has a very strong prophectic ring to it as it applies so to intimacy with the Lord He is desiring from His children. Apart from the evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost, one's longing to know the Father is quite unigue in that Psalm. How such intensity of spirit unto the Father can be had from a fallen man is a testimony to what he really is capable of when believing God by His Grace revealed. It is a testimony that man needs no special faith to believe God. I don't have problem believing all such men, as Abraham, Enoch, et al, had such intensity of faith, were the mighty men God used.

Thanks much for bringing that Psalm to my remembrance, Jeff. . :-) :-)

 2007/5/4 3:40
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Are we going to get a straight answer to what 'divinity happening' means to you? Are you saying that we will become divine as Christ became human. His was incarnation, are you talking about human deification?

In what sense do men become 'divine' according to your understanding? You say as Christ was 'divine-human'; are you suggesting that we become exactly 'as Christ' in terms of his nature? Christ was fully God and fully man. We are certainly to become 'fully man' but are you saying that we are to become 'fully God'? Just what are you saying? In what sense do you believe man will become 'divine'?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/5/4 6:24Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

At what point do we see the disciples become the habitation of the indwelling Spirit. Ormly suggests that it occurred in John 20:22 ““And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:”
(John 20:22 KJVS)...but Christ was standing by them when he said these words. How could he be indwelling them and standing by them at the same time?

The earlier promise had been......“but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.” (John 14:17 KJVS) This clearly points to a different relationship. Prepositions are 'relationship' words and the prepositions here are used in careful contrast. "with" is para which literally means 'by the side of'. 'in' you is 'en' which in this context means 'within'.

When Christ was breathing on the disciples he was 'para' them. The indwelling Spirit was not given until Christ was on the throne by his Father's side. Whatever happened in John 20:22 it cannot possibly have been the beginning of the 'indwelling Spirit' for those upon whom he blew.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/5/4 6:35Profile









 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
Are we going to get a straight answer to what 'divinity happening' means to you? Are you saying that we will become divine as Christ became human. His was incarnation, are you talking about human deification?

In what sense do men become 'divine' according to your understanding? You say as Christ was 'divine-human'; are you suggesting that we become exactly 'as Christ' in terms of his nature? Christ was fully God and fully man. We are certainly to become 'fully man' but are you saying that we are to become 'fully God'? Just what are you saying? In what sense do you believe man will become 'divine'?



Re-read all I have written. I am not going to repeat myself. I have submitted scripture for you to read and get undertanding from. You have addressed none of it. That's all. Ask questions along the lines of not understanding the scripture rather than try to get me to contradict myself.

 2007/5/4 6:50









 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
At what point do we see the disciples become the habitation of the indwelling Spirit. Ormly suggests that it occurred in John 20:22 ““And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:”
(John 20:22 KJVS)...but Christ was standing by them when he said these words. How could he be indwelling them and standing by them at the same time?

The earlier promise had been......“but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.” (John 14:17 KJVS) This clearly points to a different relationship. Prepositions are 'relationship' words and the prepositions here are used in careful contrast. "with" is para which literally means 'by the side of'. 'in' you is 'en' which in this context means 'within'.

When Christ was breathing on the disciples he was 'para' them. The indwelling Spirit was not given until Christ was on the throne by his Father's side. Whatever happened in John 20:22 it cannot possibly have been the beginning of the 'indwelling Spirit' for those upon whom he blew.



It is plain you refuse to believe the simple written word. Asking someone to explain what you refuse to accept only stirs up strife.

 2007/5/4 6:53
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
It is plain you refuse to believe the simple written word. Asking someone to explain what you refuse to accept only stirs up strife.



I disagree. If you have a strong grasp of what you believe you will be able to explain it to us in a way that we can understand what you are driving at. Earlier you asked me for a simple 'yes' or 'no' answer. I answered it. If I may ask again, "Do you believe that we will someday be divine as Jesus Christ is Divine?" What I mean by Divine is that we would have certain attributes such as:

1) Omniscience
2) Omnipotence
3) Omnipresence
4) Immutability
etc.




_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/5/4 8:55Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Re-read all I have written. I am not going to repeat myself. I have submitted scripture for you to read and get undertanding from. You have addressed none of it. That's all. Ask questions along the lines of not understanding the scripture rather than try to get me to contradict myself.



When I read the scriptures you presented I am merely reading that man is being changed into the image of Christ from glory to glory. By 'image of Christ' I mean the second Adam- the man who came and lived a sinless life in perfect submission to the Father. he never 'fell short' of the glory of God. Man was made in the image of God and Jesus Christ was the perfect representation of that. Regenerated man is not [i]becoming God[/i]- he/she is being restored into the image of God. This does not make one equal with God (i.e. Deity).

Man never lost the full image of God even after the fall. We are told in two places that man is still in the image of God- one when God instituted the death penalty in Genesis and the other when James said that out of the same mouth comes blessing and cursing and with the same mouth we bless God and curse men that are made after the image of God. I believe this is why Satan hates humanity. We are in the image of God and to murder man or to curse another man is in some way an affront on God because we were made in His image. Scripture does not lay out for us the fulness of what it means to be made in the image of God. But we do know how a perfect man (the Second Adam) was. Not the Deity of Christ that He knew before the foundation of the world- but that perfect man that never fell short of the glory of God.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/5/4 9:07Profile









 Re:

Quote:

RobertW wrote:
Quote:
It is plain you refuse to believe the simple written word. Asking someone to explain what you refuse to accept only stirs up strife.



I disagree. If you have a strong grasp of what you believe you will be able to explain it to us in a way that we can understand what you are driving at. Earlier you asked me for a simple 'yes' or 'no' answer. I answered it. If I may ask again, "Do you believe that we will someday be divine as Jesus Christ is Divine?" What I mean by Divine is that we would have certain attributes such as:

1) Omniscience
2) Omnipotence
3) Omnipresence
4) Immutability
etc.




And I asked you what you think this means that I should have to explain it to you?:

John 17:22-23 (KJV) 17: And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

1 John 3:2-3 Beloved, now are we children of God, and what we shall be has not yet been manifested; we know that if it is manifested we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. And every one that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as *he* is pure.

 2007/5/4 9:09









 Re:

Quote:

RobertW wrote:
Quote:
Re-read all I have written. I am not going to repeat myself. I have submitted scripture for you to read and get undertanding from. You have addressed none of it. That's all. Ask questions along the lines of not understanding the scripture rather than try to get me to contradict myself.



When I read the scriptures you presented I am merely reading that man is being changed into the image of Christ from glory to glory. By 'image of Christ' I mean the second Adam- the man who came and lived a sinless life in perfect submission to the Father. he never 'fell short' of the glory of God. Man was made in the image of God and Jesus Christ was the perfect representation of that. Regenerated man is not [i]becoming God[/i]- he/she is being restored into the image of God. This does not make one equal with God (i.e. Deity).



How do you know that?? Given what Jesus said, I am forced to disagree. Why would it be a violation in your thinking tto believe God would have such a plan for Himself established in divine-human beings with Jesus Christ as the head?

Quote:
Man never lost the full image of God even after the fall. We are told in two places that man is still in the image of God- one when God instituted the death penalty in Genesis and the other when James said that out of the same mouth comes blessing and cursing and with the same mouth we bless God and curse men that are made after the image of God. I believe this is why Satan hates humanity. We are in the image of God and to murder man or to curse another man is in some way an affront on God because we were made in His image. Scripture does not lay out for us the fulness of what it means to be made in the image of God. But we do know how a perfect man (the Second Adam) was. Not the Deity of Christ that He knew before the foundation of the world- but that perfect man that never fell short of the glory of God.



Then why deny divinity for man when Jesus, the Man, was the first of the first fruits of it all?

Being in the image of God now, according to scripture, will come to complete fruition in that Day. "When we see Him, we will be like Him"

 2007/5/4 9:15





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