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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Total Depravity & Entire Sanctification

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RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
As I read OT Scripture, I find that many aspects which speak of relationship between God and man are found in both the OT and NT.



I think it is best expressed by realizing that while the Tabernacle was on the earth it was God's 'dwelling place' or Temple. When Christ was upon the earth HE was the Temple. And at Pentecost the Church became the Temple.

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. (John 14:17)

Enoch walked with God. God appeared to Abram and Isaac and Jacob. God appeared to Moses to speak face to face. God spoke to Samuel with an audible voice. Isaiah saw the LORD high and exalted. Ezekiel saw visions of wheels. But what are we to make of a people with whom God has come into them to make His abode? Our bodies are [i]now[/i] the Temple of the Holy Ghost. Surely some had experiences in the Old Testament and fillings, etc. John the Baptist and others. But Acts 2 was a turning point in human history. God had come to tabernacle [u]in[/u] man. The one who had been 'with' the disciples was now 'in' the disciples.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/5/3 8:48Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
One more thing bone up on your knowledge of eastern adoption. It's all in the Bible



I'm familiar with adoption was there a particulr point you wanted to make to bring some clarity to what you are ultimately driving at?


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/5/3 8:50Profile
whyme
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Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

RobertW said in a post that he doesn't see regeneration in the OT. I submit that it is there. As Paul says in Romans, the natural man does not discern or understand spiritual things. Therefore, an understanding of spiritual things requires a spiritual quickening in the man. I would submit that Moses, David and others had to have had a spiritual quickening in order to have understood what they clearly did. Further, if the man in his unregenrated state is enmity with God, then those individuals who clearly weren't at enmity with God like Moses and David would seem to be regenreated. Finally, and I'm sure there will be arguments about this, take a look at 1Samuel 10:6-9. God made Saul into a new man and gave him a new heart. This suggests something more that the mere influence of the Holy Spirit. Something to think about anyway.

 2007/5/3 9:05Profile









 Re:

Quote:
...... But Acts 2 was a turning point in human history. God had come to tabernacle in man. The one who had been 'with' the disciples was now 'in' the disciples.



No......"Upon". The "with" and "in" were past.

In this is the grooming for divinity to happen. In this is how a child of God comes into son-ship and joint-heir-ship, by adoption.

 2007/5/3 9:35
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

And they were all [u]filled[/u] with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. (Acts 2:4)




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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/5/3 11:01Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
In this is the grooming for divinity to happen. In this is how a child of God comes into son-ship and joint-heir-ship, by adoption.


What does it mean for 'divinity to happen'?

You have the order of these the wrong way about. Most versions have very plainly something similar to the KJV“And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:” (John 20:22 KJVS)emphusaO is to 'blow'. Christ breathed 'on' them. This is of the nature of an 'anointing' an external process which the context makes clear is focused on commissioning rather than regeneration.


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Ron Bailey

 2007/5/3 11:35Profile
PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
This is of the nature of an 'anointing' an external process which the context makes clear is focused on commissioning rather than regeneration.



Amen.

Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Power in this verse is '[url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Act&chapter=1&verse=8&strongs=1411&page=]dunamis[/url].' Which is a power by nature or "inherent power."

Would this verse show that when He comes upon them they will receive a power that will be "inherent" or "in their nature?"




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Josh Parsley

 2007/5/3 11:52Profile









 Re:

Quote:

RobertW wrote:
And they were all [u]filled[/u] with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. (Acts 2:4)



That's right.....Acts 1:4-5 (HCSB) While He was together with them,[the disciples per John 20.22] He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for the Father’s promise. “This,” [He said, “is what] you heard from Me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” [emphasis added]


Please don't place the emphasis upon the word 'filled' as because if you do the word baptize doesn't even fit.

When did Jesus, while in His flesh, ever baptize anyone with the Holy Ghost?

THere are only three manifestations of the Holy Ghost. This was the last one.

 2007/5/3 12:51
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Please don't place the emphasis upon the word 'filled' as because if you do the word baptize doesn't even fit.



I'm just pointing to the word. Stephen was said to be 'full' of the Holy Ghost as were many other Apostles. This seemed to be the Holy Spirit's emphasis as they exibited extraordinary demonstrations of wisdom, unction, grace, and the whole lot. I can baptize a bottle in water and fill it at the same time. I have always felt that being 'full' of the Holy Ghost was the key to walking in Book of Acts and New Testament Christianity.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/5/3 13:06Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
That's right.....Acts 1:4-5 (HCSB) While He was together with them,[the disciples per John 20.22] He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for the Father’s promise. “This,” [He said, “is what] you heard from Me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” [emphasis added]


The 'coming of the Spirit' in John is plainly declared to be 'not yet given because that Jesus was not yet glorified...“In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”
(John 7:37-39 KJVS)Subsequently Jesus declared that the Spirit would not come until Christ himself had left.“Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.” (John 16:7 KJVS)
This statement shows that the 'indwelling Spirit' and Christ himself would not be present on the earth at the same time. John's teaching also includes 3 statements about a 'coming day'...John 14:20 (ASV) In that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

John 16:23 (ASV) And in that day ye shall ask me no question. Verily, verily, I say unto you, if ye shall ask anything of the Father, he will give it you in my name.

John 16:26 (ASV) In that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you; The first of these plainly speaks of the conscious union effected by the indwelling of Christ by the Spirit.

I have my own views about the implications of John 20:22 but this event was certainly not the one spoken of previously in John's gospel. The only event to fulfil the conditions of John's gospel is that explained by Peter...“Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.” (Acts 2:33 KJVS)


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Ron Bailey

 2007/5/3 13:07Profile





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