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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Total Depravity & Entire Sanctification

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rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4790


 Re:

Brother Robert wrote:

Quote:
I need to stop and be honest here and say that what bothers me about the direction of our conversations is that a case is being continually made for the sufficiency of the Old Testament as if we never really needed the New.



Are you refering to the Scripture of the OT or the Old Covenant?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/5/2 23:00Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4790


 Re:

Brother Ormly,

Is it proper for a teacher under the New Covenant to teach about the experiences of the OT saints and then appropriate those experiences to a NT saint?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/5/2 23:06Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
When one is born again he becomes a child of God who is then turned over to the tutorship of the Holy Spirit to be groomed for divinty. That is what redemption opens the door to for one to have accomplished in his new born life.




Perhaps you have some scriptures in mind here that will piece what you are saying together. As far as I'm concerned I cannot be any more than I already am in Christ. I already belong to God. I am being transformed into His image from glory to glory and this is a progressive glorification. But being groomed for divinity sounds almost like we are becoming gods. Surely you did not mean that?


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/5/2 23:28Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Are you refering to the Scripture of the OT or the Old Covenant?



Hi Jeff,

I'm referring to the Old Covenant in particular and the concept that one could be born again under the Law. Received ye the Holy Spirit by the works of the Law or the hearing of faith? Those who were baptized under John's baptism had not as much as heard that there Be a Holy Spirit. How could they have possibly been born again according to John 3:3? This is not to say that there were not many who loved God- because I believe they did. But to suggest they were enjoying the 'In Christ' benefits prior to the Cross and Pentecost seems impossible other than imputed righteousness.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/5/2 23:32Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4790


 Re:

Brother Robert wrote:

Quote:
But to suggest they were enjoying the 'In Christ' benefits prior to the Cross and Pentecost seems impossible other than imputed righteousness.



Paul writes that rigtheousness is imputed to us as well.


Rom. 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.



Quote:
Received ye the Holy Spirit by the works of the Law or the hearing of faith? T



Was righteousness imputed to Abraham by the works of the Law or by faith?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/5/3 0:09Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4790


 Re:

Just a general comment...

As I read OT Scripture, I find that many aspects which speak of relationship between God and man are found in both the OT and NT. One of those aspects I highlighted in an earlier post points to the Lord chasenting those who are His sons. This precept is found in the oldest book of the Bible, Job. This precept is found in the Psalms and Proverbs. It seems to me that God through His Holy Spirit brings about these circumstances in the life of those who live by faith.

I have learned to give up on reasoning and instead listen to what Scripture has to say about these precepts...

Over time I recognize NT life in the OT remnant that is saved by God's grace through faith.

How many since Christ's death walk as Enoch walked?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/5/3 0:23Profile









 Re:

Quote:

RobertW wrote:
Quote:
When one is born again he becomes a child of God who is then turned over to the tutorship of the Holy Spirit to be groomed for divinty. That is what redemption opens the door to for one to have accomplished in his new born life.




Perhaps you have some scriptures in mind here that will piece what you are saying together. As far as I'm concerned I cannot be any more than I already am in Christ. I already belong to God. I am being transformed into His image from glory to glory and this is a progressive glorification.


If it is true then what more can be said.
Quote:
But being groomed for divinity sounds almost like we are becoming gods. Surely you did not mean that?



If we are to be as Jesus Christ was in His flesh per Jn17, why is that a wrong understanding? Didn't Jesus mean what He said when saying that we should be perfect as the Father is?

One more thing bone up on your knowledge of eastern adoption. It's all in the Bible


 2007/5/3 4:26
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Was righteousness imputed to Abraham by the works of the Law or by faith?



I'm sorry Jeff. What I meant was that imputed righteousness existed in the OT, but I do not see regeneration as we know of it is the New Testament prior to Pentecost and the New Covenant.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/5/3 8:15Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
If we are to be as Jesus Christ was in His flesh per Jn17, why is that a wrong understanding? Didn't Jesus mean what He said when saying that we should be perfect as the Father is?



Yes, but exactly what constitutes [i]perfection[/i] is a matter of debate. The context of being 'perfect' as the Father is:

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Matt 5:41-48)

This passage is an appeal to do good to all people regardless. How is it achieved in this passage?

1) Greet everyone, not just your brethren.
2) Love everyone, not just those who love you.
3) Pray for those who despitefully use and persecute you.
4) Bless them that curse you.
5) Do good to them that hate you.

Why? Because this is what God does. He is not selective in the distribution of His goodness. He sends rain on the just and the unjust. In a general sense He does not withhold the necessities of life from those in rebellion or who hate Him. He loves in spite of it. Now He does send judgment, but that is another matter. A cursory look at history will show how the longsuffering of God waited on the pagan civilizations. Even those that were terribly brutal in their wickedness.

I think this is why Wesley seemed to defined perfection as just living out the two great commandments. Not angelic perfection or pre-fall Adamic perfection.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/5/3 8:29Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
If we are to be as Jesus Christ was in His flesh per Jn17, why is that a wrong understanding?



Given the fact that many people have come to different conclusions as to these passages it is important to understand exactly what is meant by being groomed for the Divine. A few blocks from my house is the huge RLDS temple. Some LDS believe that as man is now- God once was and as God is now man some day shall be. This is obviously heretical- but nonetheless many believe it. So for me I just need to know what folk are ultimately meaning when they speak of these types of things. ;-)


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/5/3 8:38Profile





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