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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Total Depravity & Entire Sanctification

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rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4791


 Re:

Brother Ormly asked:

Quote:
What did Jesus, as a man, possess that is now given to the children of God for their progress into son-ship?



John 16:

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/5/2 6:41Profile









 Re:

Quote:

rookie wrote:
Brother Ormly asked:

Quote:
What did Jesus, as a man, possess that is now given to the children of God for their progress into son-ship?



John 16:

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

In Christ
Jeff



That's right, Jeff. However, is it the "indwelling" or the "coming upon" of the Holy Ghost to be the Promise of the the Father, Jesus speaks of?

 2007/5/2 7:28
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
You may not like the illustration but I think there is truth in it. Truth is much more than facts. Facts set no one free. How many addicts know the facts?



Actually I like it. Dried milk? Hummm you can buy that stuff. Just add water. I don't think we would be charged with heresy on that one. :-) And it also goes along with the whole Red Heifer thing. The Holy Spirit 'appropriates' the finished work of the Cross, why not the Holy Spirit make the word of God truth to us individually?


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/5/2 8:46Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
This precept of chastening is in the OT also...



I need to stop and be honest here and say that what bothers me about the direction of our conversations is that a case is being continually made for the sufficiency of the Old Testament as if we never really needed the New. Almost like we could have gotten along just fine if we lived in 100 BC as compared to now. But this is no doubt the 'type' of argument that the Jews made for which the Book of Hebrews was written to counter.

If the Old Covenant experience was essentially no different than our then why would we need to be under the New. Is this what Hebrews says?

Heb. 7:18

For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

Heb. 7:28

For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; [u]but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son,[/u] who is consecrated for evermore.


This is a systematic attempt by the writer of the Hebrews to demonstate not just the superiority of the New Covenant and it's various promises (including the receiving of the Holy Spirit) but that the Old Covenant was not capable of achieving what is accomplished in the New. The message is Hebrews seems to be page after page of forsaking the Old Covenant system and what it was able to do and look to the New Covenant as the greatest and final covenant to which God would redeem man.



_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/5/2 8:56Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I know many folk who know not Christ yet are compassionate towards others? Is compassion a thing of righteousness or unrighteousness? If we say yes then we must conclude man is indeed capable of doing somethings on his own without outside assistance from God; Jesus had to have something else in mind when, in John, He said we can doing nothing on our own, wouldn't you have to agree?



I don't want to jump the gun here but this sounds similar to an argument a Quaker would make for the universality of the indwelling Holy Spirit. But much of these things are the remnants of the image of God in which we were created and the function of the conscience, etc. The conscience is God's agent in my estimation and sometimes comes off like the Holy Spirit, perhaps. But even the most vile of people do some things 'good' perhaps. It is written that in the last days people would be without natural affection. Without familial love. I believe God expects these traits to remain in man fallen or not. I don't believe the Holy Spirit has to be actively involved in the exercise of them- they are natural.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/5/2 9:04Profile









 Re:


By that then Compassion is an act of righteousness though the Holy Spirit be not involved? I agree.

 2007/5/2 9:11
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Temptation can lead to sin if you allow it. Your question should read: How do we sucessfully come against it? Clue: What did Jesus, as a man, possess that is now given to the children of God [u]for their progress into son-ship?[/u]



Do you believe that sonship is a work in progress or a crisis event?


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/5/2 10:54Profile









 Re:

Quote:

RobertW wrote:
Quote:
Temptation can lead to sin if you allow it. Your question should read: How do we sucessfully come against it? Clue: What did Jesus, as a man, possess that is now given to the children of God [u]for their progress into son-ship?[/u]



Do you believe that sonship is a work in progress or a crisis event?




Depends on the child of God being tutored in the progress wouldn't you say? It could conceivably be one crisis event after another, eh? The measure of faith increased would be the evidence of the progress being made.

 2007/5/2 16:55
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Depends on the child of God being tutored in the progress wouldn't you say? It could conceivably be one crisis event after another, eh? The measure of faith increased would be the evidence of the progress being made.



I'm sorry Ormly, let me restate the question. Do you believe that there is a moment in time when a person becomes a 'son' and is a son from that point on or do you believe that folk are progressing towards sonship?


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/5/2 17:10Profile









 Re:

Quote:

RobertW wrote:
Quote:
Depends on the child of God being tutored in the progress wouldn't you say? It could conceivably be one crisis event after another, eh? The measure of faith increased would be the evidence of the progress being made.



I'm sorry Ormly, let me restate the question. Do you believe that there is a moment in time when a person becomes a 'son' and is a son from that point on or do you believe that folk are progressing towards sonship?




When one is born again he becomes a child of God who is then turned over to the tutorship of the Holy Spirit to be groomed for divinty. That is what redemption opens the door to for one to have accomplished in his new born life. That is wht Paul meant by his words, work out you salvation with fear and trembling. Salvation doesn't end at the point of redemption. It is an on going process that brings one to a destination in Christ unto the Father. Undertsanding the rest of the story will be the thing that will sustain like nothing else will. It is Joy unspeakanble and full of Glory!.

 2007/5/2 17:22





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