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crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Extreme

Quote:
Katz and Ben Israel espouse a doctrine which I call "Extreme Sovereignty of God".


That might be your take brother but I do not know that this is any 'doctrine' intended nor particularly held to ... other than by yourself. In other words, you are casting everything into a preposition that you have crafted.

What is missing from your assumption is any proof's that this is so, according to your logic. 'Many people sited' and not listed nor given example and a couple of out takes from Art Katz or his ministry does not constitute a 'doctrine', are we to take your word for it?

Quote:
Art Katz's statement is clear, "and receive every difficulty, trial and experience that comes into our life as coming from Gods hand."



"[i]As[/i]"

Quote:
Anyone who has access to Art Katz may copy what I have written and send it to Art.



Is this not your prerogative? Why not ask them yourself rather than raising some suspicion here and asking us to answer questions only they can answer, being that this one lone statement has begun all this. Their contact information is readily available.

The sense you are leaving with this assumption is one of 'everything under one umbrella' and if that is so it would have to be proven consistent. Have never picked up on this idea from all that I have heard and read from Art.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/3/20 0:23Profile
Goldminer
Member



Joined: 2006/11/7
Posts: 1178
Alabama

 Re: Extreme

I have to agree with Mike. I have read Art Katz a lot and seen him in person and have seen nothing like that.


_________________
KLC

 2007/3/20 7:58Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Extreme

There is a bit more ... To be frank I could see where this idea that our brother mentions is a possibility and even where a 'extreme' version taken out of balance is actual ... If I am not mistaken it would be [i]fatalism[/i]. Perhaps the concern as it applies here is where this might all be leading to or insinuated. Just seems to me we ought to be very careful in how the terms are being applied. A lot of accusations are just that, accusations. It is rather difficult to try and unravel that which is being put out as 'fact' over against a perspective of tendencies, either real or imagined.

Think there is a great deal of misunderstanding about the whole matter of God's sovereignty.


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Mike Balog

 2007/3/20 10:24Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
crsschk on 2007/3/20 15:24:59
Think there is a great deal of misunderstanding about the whole matter of God's sovereignty.


I think you are right.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/3/20 11:46Profile
BudTexas
Member



Joined: 2007/3/10
Posts: 22
Fort Worth, TX

 Re: Read what Art wrote, he means this.

Goldminer:

Art Katz's statement is clear, "and receive every difficulty, trial and experience that comes into our life as coming from Gods hand."

We don't like to believe that our heroes and mentors are wrong. It makes us look a little foolish for having listened to them.

I met Art in Laredo, Tx around 1980. I was fishing with him in Minnesota on the morning the radio announced the death of Keith Green. I have been to Katz meetings in Brooklyn, NY. I have boxes of Katz cassettes, CDs and DVDs. No one has had a bigger impact on my spiritual life than Art.

I want Art to continue in ministry but repent of this extreme, unscriptural "sovereignty of God" doctrine. It is a misrepresentation of God.


 2007/3/21 19:45Profile









 Re: Fire at Ben Israel


Hi Bud,

'No one has had a bigger impact on my spiritual life than Art.

I want Art to continue in ministry but repent of this extreme, unscriptural "sovereignty of God" doctrine. It is a misrepresentation of God.'


So, have you discussed this with him personally?

 2007/3/21 20:02
Goldminer
Member



Joined: 2006/11/7
Posts: 1178
Alabama

 Re: Ben Israel Fire



Dear Bud,

I have no heroes except Jesus, however I do have those I respect. I also feel that if you bring an accusastion against a elder it should be in a biblical manner.

[color=0000CC]1Ti 5:1 Rebuke not an elder, but intreat [him] as a father; [and] the younger men as brethren;[/color]

[color=0000CC]1Ti 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.[/color]


Do I agree with everything Art says, probably not. However I respect him and have been blessed greatly by his ministry. There are very few that I agree with everything they say, but I am careful to go through the biblical steps if I would speak against them.


Also I would be very careful to not pass judgement on someone by one statement. I could take one statement out of the Bible and make an entire doctrine out of it. To take one statement, which we don't even know if Art or someone else from Ben Israel said, and think that represents thier full belief is stretching it a bit for me. If it takes an entire book to partially teach on the sovereignty of God how can we think one statement can sum up ones entire belief system. It is jumping to too many conclusions without giving the accused a chance to defend themselves.

I will end with this, even it it turns out that Art believes in the sovereignty of God the way you describe, I will still love and respect him, he is a wonderful brother in the Lord. I still love you too.



_________________
KLC

 2007/3/21 21:53Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

I must say, I've been devouring material by Art Katz since this last summer, having gone through 50+ sermons, a few books, articles, as well as some correspondence with those at Ben Israel, including Katz himself. I can't say I know what this "extreme" view of sovereignty is.

So far as I have seen in his teachings, brother Katz does believe that God intervenes in the affairs of mankind. He is not some sort of distant cosmic deity. Rather, He is a God that is near, and concerned deeply with ever area of life. Indeed, God is involved with every area of life.

With this though, Katz doesn't believe every little thing that happens in life is somehow some big thing in the Divine drama. I have heard him talk of people being sick, getting hurt, etc., and not in anyway somehow trying to attach something of great prophetic significance to their situation. Even though God is involved in the affairs of mankind, sometimes things just happen. However, even during such times, we still can look at such things as a chance to grow in our faith.

All I see with brother Katz here is that Ben Israel is open to hearing what God might be trying to say to them through this recent problem. To deny that God could be speaking to them through such an event is where the heresy lies. Sadly, things happen in our lives every day that people never ask God about what He might be doing. Sadly, many people don't see God involved in our lives or ministries, save to perhaps bless whatever we have been doing.


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Jimmy H

 2007/3/21 22:27Profile
Dovie
Member



Joined: 2007/3/21
Posts: 2
Arizona

 Re: Ben Israel Fire

It seems to me that humility is the issue here as Ben Israel bows before the Lord in every step of the way. Right now, It is the fire and humility listens to God. The Lord will reveal it all to them. He will guide them and fulfilll the promise that all things work together for good to those who love the Lord.


_________________
Doris Pile

 2007/3/23 16:08Profile
BudTexas
Member



Joined: 2007/3/10
Posts: 22
Fort Worth, TX

 Re: Gods works for the good.

Amp Bible (and others say)

28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[j] who[k] have been called according to his purpose.

All things do not work together for good. God works for good in everything toward those who love Him.

We need to humble ourselves in a correct way, in a scriptural manner.

If our humbling is laying down the shield of faith, putting the sword of the spirit, the Word of God, away and using a false doctrine to explain away our refusal to take the authority given each believer then that is not humility.

 2007/3/23 20:36Profile





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