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hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re: Fire At Ben Israel

"edit" (double post)


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CHRISTIAN

 2007/3/19 2:20Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re: Fire At Ben Israel

Rom 5:2 Through Him we also have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice on the hope of the glory of God.
Rom 5:3 And not only this,[i][b][color=CC0000][font=Arial]but we glory in afflictions[/font][/color][/b][/i] also, knowing that afflictions work out patience,


to me, to glory in afflictions, either you are totally insane, or you are right in the heart of Gods will

G2347
θλίψις
thlipsis
Thayer Definition:
1) a pressing, pressing together, pressure
2) metaphorically oppression, affliction, tribulation, distress, straits


G2347
θλίψις
thlipsis
thlip'-sis
From G2346; pressure (literally or figuratively): - afflicted, (-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

2Co 6:4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
2Co 6:5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labors, in watchings, in fastings;
2Co 6:6 By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,

Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

1Th 3:3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.
1Th 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

2Ti 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;



i dont remember who said it, but i belive it to be true


some tell you if your having problems ou are out of the will of God, but i say to you, if you dont have problems you are out of the will of God.......


God bless you all
May he strengthen us all to glory in tribulation and afflictions.

Christian


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CHRISTIAN

 2007/3/19 2:28Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Art believes that and that is why the fire burning down their ministry building was reported as something they embrace; "as we embrace His rebuke and instruction."


Perhaps Art and the saints at Ben Israel are conscious that some 'rebuke' was necessary? This is not the conclusion I would jump to but if the saints there believe this event to be a rebuke surely God will make it known to them just what he was rebuking?

What kind of parent would dish out discipline without any kind of explanation? We cannot really repent without conviction of sin and it is the work of the Spirit to put his finger right on the spot... the word of God comes in precise power, piercing rather than hacking.“For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.” (Heb 4:12-13 NKJV)I say this because if Art and the Ben Israel saints really do believe that God has rebuked them where do we stand with encouragements to support them with funds? Would that not be working against God's rebuke?


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Ron Bailey

 2007/3/19 8:15Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Refusing to speculate beyond measure

Quote:
Perhaps Art and the saints at Ben Israel are conscious that some 'rebuke' was necessary?


Ah ... Had been pondering exactly this. It was their statement to begin with and only they themselves could give an adequate answer. Find a great deal of this whole matter an overshooting of thought's and intentions a sort of peculiar dissecting ...

Originally the report was of expressed sadness, of willing to be examined, humbled, seek the Lord, examine, review and lastly coveting of prayers. What a great response to such a sorrowful occasion.

Since the original posting of the summary they have gone on to update and add the following;

"[i]At the request of saints around the world, we provide the following information regarding donations[/i]:"

[url=http://www.benisrael.org/site_content/TMP/BIF_tragedy.htm]Heart Wrenching Scene[/url]




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Mike Balog

 2007/3/19 9:03Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re: Refusing to speculate beyond measure

Hi,please correct me if i am wrong but that is a tiny metal storage shed in that picture.This does not appear to be any big deal.I know it is bad and I am minimizing the situation but I fail to see books and tapes as a great loss. Books from a publisher are a dime a dozen,and I am sure people have tapes that can be recopied.The meeting hall can be rebuilt.I am sure this man has a following that will pitch in to rebuild an even better hall.The hall will be the big expense. Depending on the size of the congregation, it should not take too long.I know i'm making some people mad but I dont think many poor people have the same opportunity as pastors.their house burns down-go sleep under a bridge.They dont have the opportunity to call upon world wide offerings.Go to Honduras and see people still wiped out because of a hurricane that happened 5 yeears ago. Nobody helped them.This year a report came in that the tarahumara indians are starving to death. This is in our backyard!Mexico!...I'm trying not to be mad but when I saw Pay-Pal and "U.S. currency only" ......I got steamed!

 2007/3/19 9:50Profile
Goldminer
Member



Joined: 2006/11/7
Posts: 1178
Alabama

 Re: Ben Israel Fire

I think that it was stated the methods of sending an offering were at the requests of believers, me being one.

As far as Ben Israel and Burning Bush go they are not your traditional fellowhip, they are a christian community that has all things in common. They are not the big bucks guys, just a humble fellowship without great numbers and this why their building was humble. This was a great loss for them.

Having said that, God will provide everything they need to accomplish His purposes through them.

A group of people like those associated with Art Katz will not have a big following because they don't preach the popular gospel. If you start listening to some of his sermons available on this site you will see why. It is the tickle my ears folks that bring in big congregations and money. This is a totally different kind of fellowship. We need to support those rightly divide the word.


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KLC

 2007/3/19 13:12Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I think that it was stated the methods of sending an offering were at the requests of believers, me being one.


I'm not wanting to confront you on this but am just trying to understand the situation. Does Art and the Ben Israel community believe that the fire is a rebuke from God and if so how does giving funds to rebuild/restore fit into that?

I know that they are not rattling the collection plate. I have the greatest respect for Art's integrity even though I dispute his theology.


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Ron Bailey

 2007/3/19 13:31Profile
Goldminer
Member



Joined: 2006/11/7
Posts: 1178
Alabama

 Re:

From the email I received from a brother there which I posted on this site, they are prayerfully asking God all the questions you asked. I think it is a bit premature to know the answer. When we go through difficulties we have to prayerfully take it before God to know the answers to these things. We don't know always immediately.

As for me, God let me know immediately to help them out. It wasn't that they asked, it was what God laid on my heart. We need to each do as God puts in our hearts to do. There are others who also felt God wanted them to do something and this is what the post on Ben Israel was alluding to.

I personally feel they are to be commended for seeking God before taking any step. They are simply asking God what the next step should be. Even it they only need new computers to share and publish the messages God gives to them, it will cost something. I would rather err on the side of helping a part of the body than to do nothing when God prompted my heart.


This is the quote from their site:

[color=0000CC]We want to humble ourselves before Him, as we embrace His rebuke and instruction. We want to examine ourselves, review, take account, and with one heart seek His face for the way ahead. We covet the prayers of the saints.[/color]

It seems to me they are just seeking to know what God was speaking in all this. That is a good thing. I don't believe they were saying they are being rebuked, but if it is they want to receive it as well. We all must do this with every event of our lives.


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KLC

 2007/3/19 13:46Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

I understand what Ron is questioning. In that quote they plainly say they want to enbrace his rebuke. That doesn't sound like they are wondering if it is a rebuke or not.

LATER EDIT: and if it is a rebuke, why aren't you allowing them to embrace it?


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Josh Parsley

 2007/3/19 14:28Profile
BudTexas
Member



Joined: 2007/3/10
Posts: 22
Fort Worth, TX

 Re: God does not rebuke by burning down our buildings

Folks:

Please!

The issue is the doctrine.

Katz and Ben Israel espouse a doctrine which I call "Extreme Sovereignty of God".

Art Katz's statement is clear, "and receive every difficulty, trial and experience that comes into our life as coming from Gods hand."

This is a misrepresentation of God and it pervades Art's teaching.

Art is not alone in this. Millions of Christians hold to this unscriptural understanding of how God deals with us and how He deals with the world.

Entire denominations (usually Reformed something or other) promote this doctine.

In other things I wish the entire church followed the leadership of Art Katz and Ben Israel. The message of the value of community alone validates their existence (though I don't want to live with folk who say that God teaches us by burning down our buildings).

Art's openning up the scriptures about end time events, Israel and The Church is much needed but mainly ignored. Ignored in part because a true message is presented in the context of that false extreme sovereignty of God doctrine.

I want Art to continue on but to repent where he has missed it.

Art, I think, is a humble enough man to do this. It will be harder for him to reckon that some of his mentors, Karl Barth et al, where wrong. "Fools and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken."

There are many people sited on this "Sermon Index" web site who hold this terrible doctrine.

Anyone who has access to Art Katz may copy what I have written and send it to Art.

I don't have anymore to say about it.






 2007/3/19 19:55Profile





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