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iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

Bud,

How do you know it was a rebuke? Was Keith Green's plane crash a rebuke? Was the death of more than half of the Moravian brethren in the mission field a rebuke? Was the book of Job a rebuke? Was the cross a rebuke?

-Ian


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Ian Smith

 2007/3/15 10:20Profile
Goldminer
Member



Joined: 2006/11/7
Posts: 1178
Alabama

 Re: Ben Israel Fire


The quote on Ben Israel's web site about rebuke is letting people know they are seeking God about this fire happening. Trying to hear the heart of God. I don't think that they are saying we are being rebuked, but God search our hearts. I only say this in the light of emails from their fellowship. They are seeking how to take the next step and what step to take. If that includes repentance they want to be open to that as well.

I too believe in the sovreignty of God. The steps of a righteous man are ordered of the Lord. Unless God by way of revelation discloses to us what's coming next we must trust He will direct our steps to the best possible path. We need to pray for direction at all times.

All things work together for good to those who love God and are the called according to His purpose.

We do not know if this might have happened so God could bless the latter end of Art Katz and Ben Israel more than the beginning. Maybe God wants to expand the reaches of Art's message and the generous outpouring of the saints around the world, as the result of the fire, will enable them to do what they could have never done before.

Only God knows whether it was a rebuke or a new provision. Time will tell.

We need to not asume we know why this happened, that would be like Job's "friends". Only God knows the heart of a man and His dealings with that heart.

[color=6600CC]1Cr 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. [/color]

That part, if a member suffers, means in the strongs=

1) to be affected or have been affected, to feel, have a sensible experience, to undergo

a) in a good sense, to be well off, in good case

b) in a bad sense, to suffer sadly, be in a bad plight

1) of a sick person

members suffer with it, means=

1) to suffer or feel pain together

2) to suffer evils (troubles, persecutions) in the like manner with another

1) with

How many of us are really experiencing the pain that this part of our body is experiencing? If we are not then can we also look forward to a "rebuke"? Maybe we better take out better fire insurance.



_________________
KLC

 2007/3/15 11:14Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Not to say Art is by any means a Jezebell, but Jesus does make people sick:

Rev 2:22 I will throw her on a bed of sickness....


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Jimmy H

 2007/3/15 11:36Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Also, according to 1 Cor 11:30 teaches that failure to properly discern the body during the Lord's Supper results in bodily weakness, sickness and even death. Not of course, to say any of this applies to Ben Israel. Just demonstrating that the Lord does indeed make others sick, and speak through sickness. Not to say though, that every calamity or illness of God either.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2007/3/15 11:39Profile
BudTexas
Member



Joined: 2007/3/10
Posts: 22
Fort Worth, TX

 Re: Extreme Sovereignty of God Doctrine

The extreme sovereignty of God Doctrine is all over thie web site.

Job's experience and not Jesus is played up.

The only scriptures that people think they have a handle on about healing is "Paul's thorn in the flesh".

Scriptures like 1 Cor 11:30 are hung out to dry "proving" God strikes people with sickness and death. (It does not prove that.)

Antidotal stories about relatives is held up against scripture. The relatives win scripture loses.

Good is called evil and evil called good.

In the end who would want the god of this extreme sovereignty doctrine? With a god like that, who needs the devil?

This "god" is not full of loving kindness. He isn't good (unless you totally twist kindness and goodness to include a dose of cancer as a teaching tool from "god").

I wouldn't want to be in the same room with a god like that much less spend eternity with him.

Jesus, the real Jesus, the express image of God The Father, is someone whose presence we will never wish to leave. He really loves us, He likes us.

Jesus is really good and "Went around doing good, healing all those oppressed of the devil".

Well, I don't think I'm going to change many minds so better I leave you all alone.


 2007/3/16 20:57Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

I guess you decided to ignore the other verses like Rev 2 that are "hung out" to prove Jesus causes illness. Then I guess we could ignore how Annanias and Saphira were killed. Let's not also mention how Paul of Tarsus was struck blind. Or how Herod was eaten alive by worms.

If you have a problem being around a God like this, you don't have to go to heaven and spend eternity with Him if you don't want to.


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Jimmy H

 2007/3/16 22:44Profile
BudTexas
Member



Joined: 2007/3/10
Posts: 22
Fort Worth, TX

 Re: Sovereign Rule by His Word

In covenant or out of covenant, that is the question.

Jesus called the people upon whom the tower at Siloam fell, "sinners". Those Galilaean making sacrifices, killed by Pilate also, "sinners". Not unusually sinners, just sinners; Outside the covenant of God.

They came to an expected end. Expected because God's word had already made clear what people can expect who disregard God's word.

"For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:"

"But whoever disobeys (is unbelieving toward, refuses to trust in, disregards, is not subject to) the Son will never see (experience) life, but [instead] the wrath of God abides on him. [God's displeasure remains on him; His indignation hangs over him continually.]

God's dealings with The Body of Christ is totally different then from those not reconciled to God.

"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

So where were Ananias and Sapphira? Very possibly they had been believers who went reprobate, putting them outside the covenant.

As for (sister?) Jezebel in Rev 2, where was she? As leader of the fornication/idol worship division of her local church, she was given a space to repent. If she was ever a believer it appears she had fallen away.

Brothers and sisters in Christ can do terrible things. In 1 Cor 5:1 a brother was sleeping with his father's wife. We see how Paul believed God wanted to deal with that.

I have lived under the deception of the unscriptural sovereignty of God teaching. It is a dark place. Never sure of anything really. It is something like "karma" in Hinduism.

We have God's Word full of precious promises and blessings. God's Word which shows us the true nature of God but which can be overshaddowed, trumped, by a mysterious and unscriptural doctrine which is an "extreme sovereignty of God" teaching.

God has put His entire creation and Himself under His own Word. We can trust Him because we can trust His Word.





 2007/3/17 12:24Profile
Goldminer
Member



Joined: 2006/11/7
Posts: 1178
Alabama

 Re: sozo

Saved in the greek = Sozo = saved to the uttermost

body, soul, spirit, mind, will and emtions. We just need to reckon it to be so. The provision is sure the reception of it isn't.


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KLC

 2007/3/17 12:46Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
body, soul, spirit, mind, will and emtions. We just need to reckon it to be so. The provision is sure the reception of it isn't.


You must only reckon on what is true. If we have been baptised into Christ then we are to 'reckon' ourselved 'dead indeed...' But if we have not been baptised into Christ to reckon ourselves so would be gross presumption.


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Ron Bailey

 2007/3/17 13:12Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Sovereign

[i]Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:


But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.


And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.

And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.

Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.


Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory[/i]



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Mike Balog

 2007/3/17 13:26Profile





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