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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : The Jewish Roots of the Christian Faith

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rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Br. Robert wrote:

Quote:
And the blood of Christ cleanses the transgressed conscience from guilt.



The power of the blood to cleanse us of guilt is not only a saying that we repeat in a song. It is not only a thought that we parrot because we heard someone else say it. The power of the blood is what keeps the door open so that we may partake of His mercy and His grace. It is His words that gives us the path by which we come to know Him. Eternal life comes to those who walk with Him because He speaks through the Holy Spirit.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2004/12/17 13:08Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
It would be easy to mess up our own conscience with a bunch of non-sensical beliefs.



What I meant to say here is that we can mess up our conscience by making commandments and doctrines of men into commandments of God in our own heart. Pretty soon everything is seen as sin at the expense of liberty. i have to really guard myself from that one. :-?


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/12/17 13:15Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Br. Robert,

Quote:
Pretty soon everything is seen as sin at the expense of liberty. i have to really guard myself from that one.



What is the essence of liberty according to Scripture?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2004/12/17 13:27Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
What is the essence of liberty according to Scripture?



Hi Bro. Jeff,

To be honest I am in a serious state of brain fatigue right now. Let me come back to that one. ;-) I am trying to concentrate on annhilationism for one of the other threads.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/12/17 13:34Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
...one's faith justifies what he believes...All of these saints had one thing in common, a faith that justified their beliefs.


HI Jeff
I'm just eavesdropping here! Can you explain this point, thanks.

BTW I can't get the link to work. Can you give it a try?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2004/12/17 13:40Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Br. Ron,

Br. Rahman turned me onto this site. The link works only if you first establish a membership. It is free, just an email address and some other info.

In terms of your question, the sermon sited will clarify the thought I posted better than I can.

The site name is Sermonaudio.com.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2004/12/17 13:51Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Abraham was justified because he believed God. The sermon describes two aspects that make justification whole as a doctrine. First, because Abraham believed God, God declared him righteous. Secondly, one's faith justifies what he believes. In Chapter 11 of Hebrews we are given witness of a multitude of OT saints whom were of the seed of Abraham. All of these saints had one thing in common, a faith that justified their beliefs.


Hi Jeff
I have listened to the sermon. You have misunderstood what he is saying. He is not saying that 'faith justifies their belief'. The phrase he uses is 'works justify faith'. He is simply saying that 'justification' is used in different ways. The Gen 15:6 pattern, where 'God justifies the ungodly', this is what we would normally call 'justifying faith'. He then goes on to say that faith itself must be 'justified' (or vindicated or authenticated) by works. This is the James use of justification. The reality of the 'deeds' thereby justifying (or vindicating) the authenticity of the the original justifying faith.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2004/12/17 17:46Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Br. Ron wrote:

Quote:
You have misunderstood what he is saying. He is not saying that 'faith justifies their belief'. The phrase he uses is 'works justify faith'.



You are right, I used the word "faith" when I should have used the word "works." Faith is the substance that motivates us to good works. What we believe will be evident by what we do. If we say we love God, then our love will manifest itself in a way that the world will see the witness of that love.

Br. Ron,

Is there a difference between Abraham's faith and our's? Does it not spring from the same fountain of living water?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/12/20 11:16Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Hi Jeff

Quote:
Is there a difference between Abraham's faith and our's? Does it not spring from the same fountain of living water?


Are you going for some kind of record, to find out how many different ways this question can be asked? :-D :-D

I do not regard myself as a dispensationalist in the way the Darby, Scofield, Hal Lindsay, LeHaye, or Art Katz might be described as ‘dispensationalists’. If you want super-dispensationalism the man to turn to would be Bullinger. However without splitting life into, usually 7, dispensations I do see that different covenants are identifiable in the scripture. The Covenant designated ‘New’ is introduced in Jeremiah [b] Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: (Jer 31:31 KJV)[/b] The use of the tenses shows plainly that Jeremiah is looking ‘forwards’ to this covenant which has not yet been established at the time of Jeremiah.

It is this use of the term ‘New’ that redesignates the ‘Sinai’ covenant as ‘Old’. [b] In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (Heb 8:13 KJV)[/b] Hebrews tells us two things about that Sinai Covenant; it is now ‘old’, and it is at the point of ‘disappearance’ when Hebrews was written.

Before Abraham had entered into any kind of Covenant with God, he had entered into faith. Faith/obedience generally precedes covenant. Abraham entered into ‘justifying faith’ (Gen 15:6) at least 15 years before he entered into the Covenant whose mark was circumcision. I am not saying that these two events [u]need[/u] to be separated in time, but they must be separated in understanding. At the time of Abraham’s ‘justifying faith’ the Lord ‘made a covenant with Abraham concerning ‘his seed’, but the personal covenant between God and Abraham was not established until Gen 17:2 and was ‘signed in blood’ by Abraham’s circumcision. This was NOT the ‘Old’ Covenant but an Abrahamic Covenant the terms of which were unique to him (and which was to be repeatedly ‘established’ in successive generations).

So we have identified already 4 covenants, The Seed Covenant (Gen 15:8), The Circumcision Covenant (Gen 17:9,10), The Sinai (old) Covenant, and the promised ‘New’ covenant of Jeremiah 31 (and Hebrews etc). The question is how many of these covenants was Abraham a participant in? Well neither the Sinai (old) Covenant nor the New Covenant had arrived, so its not difficult to narrow the options a little.

Justifying faith is separable from these covenants, in concept at least.

Paul asks the question ‘what shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?’ He then takes the rest of the chapter to answer as he expounds the breadth and width of Abraham’s experience encompassed in consequence of his ‘justifying’ faith. He traces justifying faith through into the experience of David thereby showing that Abraham and David experienced the same justifying faith.

In chapter 5 he makes some additions. [b]Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, (Rom 5:1 NASB)[/b] So he now includes ‘us’ in the kind of experience expounded in chapter 4 and which I am calling justifying faith. But that is only the first verse of chapter 5. He starts from the experience of Abraham and David but goes far beyond it. [b] through whom [u]also[/u] we have obtained our introduction by faith into [u]this[/u] grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. (Rom 5:2 NASB)[/b]

In chapter 4 he expounded the grace into which Abraham had entered. In chapter 5 he expounds the grace into which ‘we’ have entered’. I have underlined two words above which show how the thought is developing. In Chapter 4 we read of ‘that grace’, the grace the Abraham and David found. In Chapter 5 we read of the distinctive grace of the Christian era. We discover that it is marked by the phrase ‘much more’ (pollO mallon). What Abraham and David had experienced was wonderful, but ‘this grace’ is ‘much more’

1. [b] [u]Much more[/u] then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. (Rom 5:9 KJV)[/b]
2. [b] For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, [u]much more[/u], being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. (Rom 5:10 KJV)[/b]
3. [b] But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, [u]much more[/u] the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. (Rom 5:15 KJV)[/b]
4. [b] For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; [u]much more[/u] they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) (Rom 5:17 KJV)[/b]

If you ask what is the distinctive of this ‘much more’ I would answer; [b]the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. [/b]


Peter points in the same direction when he says [b] Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of [u]the grace that should come unto you[/u]: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. [u]Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven[/u]; which things the angels desire to look into. (1Pe 1:8-12 KJV)[/b]

Peter speaks of grace which was different to that which the prophets received. Not that the source is different; God is the source of all grace. But all grace is not the same grace. The prophets were taught that the ‘grace’ of which they prophesied was not for their time, but for a time which was to come. The coming grace is further identified as that which was ‘preached… with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven’. The distinctive of this Christian era, is the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven… shed abroad in our hearts. This distinctive Christian experience is never recorded in the lives of Abraham or David, although they were richly blessed.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2004/12/20 15:46Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Br. Ron wrote:

Quote:
Peter speaks of grace which was different to that which the prophets received. Not that the source is different; God is the source of all grace. But all grace is not the same grace. The prophets were taught that the ‘grace’ of which they prophesied was not for their time, but for a time which was to come. The coming grace is further identified as that which was ‘preached… with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven’. The distinctive of this Christian era, is the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven… shed abroad in our hearts. This distinctive Christian experience is never recorded in the lives of Abraham or David, although they were richly blessed.



I see your point in terms of the nature or content of the grace that defines the covenants you have pointed too. The faith that justifies is essentially the same, but the workings of God through the grace that He dispenses differs.

Please, I hope I did not state this wrong, if so I am sorry.

In another thread I posted today, concerns the nature of the grace that Joel prophesised that would come. And Peter declared that the day of Pentecost was the day that Joel spoke of.

On that day, Joel and Peter said that those who received the out pouring of this grace would have visions, dreams, and prophesy. My 11 year old son taught bible study for our family this weekend on the life of Joseph. Joseph had dreams, visions, and prophesy. And I have been reading through the book of Acts this weekend, and there are witnessess of visions, dreams, and prophesy.

Do you believe that the out pouring spoken of by Joel and Peter were for that generation only?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2004/12/20 17:52Profile





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