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rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Br Ron wrote:


Quote:
In would be only 'in those days' (Jer 31:29) that the power of congenital sin would be brought to an end. The heart would no longer be [b]graven with the point of a diamond' and be 'crooked and incurable' (Jer 17:1, 9) but would have the law of God written on it. Christ looked forward to it and said 'in that day'. Peter declared it with all the power of the herald.. this is that. The Day of Pentecost had fully come.



Based on what you have said of the heart condition, would these who partake of this covenant have a circumsized heart? Would these who partake of this covenant "enter His rest?


In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2004/12/4 16:21Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Based on what you have said of the heart condition, would these who partake of this covenant have a circumsized heart? Would these who partake of this covenant "enter His rest?


Yes, but these states require maintenance.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2004/12/5 2:26Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

The writer of the book of Hebrews states:

Heb. 4:6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”

This [b]rest[/b] was offered to those whom the gospel was preached, but many of them did not enter in because of unbelief. The writer is teaching that the offer to enter in to His rest was also available prior to Christ's incarnation.

My family listened to a David Wilkerson sermon today, listen to his teaching of this subject.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=613

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/12/5 14:36Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
This rest was offered to those whom the gospel was preached, but many of them did not enter in because of unbelief. The writer is teaching that the offer to enter in to His rest was also available prior to Christ's incarnation.



Jeff
I have to admit that I grow very weary of our conversations. We just go over the same ground again and again. I don't suppose either of us has moved an inch since we started them. I feel badly when I stop answering your questions because it almost seems rude but I think we have to ask the question again; is there really any point in it?

In the days of His flesh Jesus offered 'rest'. [b]Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find [u]rest[/u] unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. [/b] (Mat 11:28-30 KJV) The word for rest is 'anapousis' it means to take a brief respite, a 'breather' as we might say over here. Just a pause in the daily grind.

The word for 'rest' in Hebrews 3 & 4 [b]For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. So there remains a Sabbath_rest for the people of God. For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. [/b] (Heb 4:8-10 NASB)is different. 'Sabbath_rest' is an entirely different word and concept, but the word for 'rest' used throughout Hebrews 3 & 4 is not the 'anapousis' of Matt 11 but 'katapousis'. The prefix 'kata' means 'down' or 'thoroughly'; pinO is to drink, katapinO is to swallow. This rest is not the breath respite of Matt 11 but an entering into God's own rest. verse 4 above translates this word as Sabbath_rest (sabbatismos).

God 'rested' on the Sabbath because the work of creation was finished. It is fascinating to think that Adam was created on the 6th day and the very next day he entered into God's rest. This was just a picture of the coming reality in which a new creation would come into being. Christ's triumphal cry of 'it is finished' means that something not previously finished was finished at this point in time. In the events of His death and resurrection the foundations of the new creation and covenant were established. Man can now 'enter into His Sabbath rest' of a new creation.

And with this I end my discussions on the your recurring theme of the Old Covenant being no different to the New, the Old Testament being a fuller revelation than the New, Christ's Melchizedek priesthood not having begun but always existing and the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost has introducing nothing new to God's order.

Please forgive me when I say I do not mean to be rude only that I am convinced that our conversations have been a waste of time, and I don't feel I can spend any more time on this topic.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/12/5 15:12Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
My family listened to a David Wilkerson sermon today, listen to his teaching of this subject.


I think David Wilkerson is mistaken in his understanding of Gal 3:8 [b]and the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the nations on the principle of faith, announced beforehand the glad tidings to Abraham: In thee all the nations shall be blessed. [/b] (Gal 3:8 Darby) The word translated 'preached before the gospel' is 'proeuaggelizomai'. It means as Darby has expressed it above. It is a pre-announcement of good news. It is the promise of a blessing that is 'not yet' but is most certainly going to come. In fact, Paul tells us the 'good news' that was pre-announced to Abraham was specifically 'In thee all the nations shall be blessed.' This good news was 'not yet'.

[b]All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.[/b]
(Heb 11:13 NASB)


I think he is mistaken too in his interpretation of 1 Pet 3:20. I respect David Wilkerson highly but this is speculation.

I think also that you have misunderstood the intent of the referrenced sermon. David Wilkerson is using Abraham and Joshua as types.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/12/5 15:32Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
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 Re:

Heb. 4:6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”

Br. Ron wrote:


Quote:
The word for 'rest' in Hebrews 3 & 4 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. So there remains a Sabbath_rest for the people of God. For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. (Heb 4:8-10 NASB)is different. 'Sabbath_rest' is an entirely different word and concept, but the word for 'rest' used throughout Hebrews 3 & 4 is not the 'anapousis' of Matt 11 but 'katapousis'. The prefix 'kata' means 'down' or 'thoroughly'; pinO is to drink, katapinO is to swallow. This rest is not the breath respite of Matt 11 but an entering into God's own rest. verse 4 above translates this word as Sabbath_rest (sabbatismos).



The rest that Hebrews 4:6-7 speaks to the same rest that Hebrews 4:8-10 speaks of. There is no difference in what was offered over and over again to each generation that proceeded from Abraham, Isaiac, and Jacob. Brother Ron, I don't understand what you are trying to cloud the discussion with the rest that is spoken of in Matthew 11.

Quote:
And with this I end my discussions on the your recurring theme of the Old Covenant being no different to the New, the Old Testament being a fuller revelation than the New, Christ's Melchizedek priesthood not having begun but always existing and the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost has introducing nothing new to God's order.



Now I remember times when you corrected me for misquoting you. What you have said here is not true.

I was hoping that you would also discuss how God circumcised the hearts of those who lived before the incarnation of Jesus Christ. I don't think you have at anytime discussed this issue.


Quote:
Please forgive me when I say I do not mean to be rude only that I am convinced that our conversations have been a waste of time, and I don't feel I can spend any more time on this topic.



I guess I'll just have to continue sharing. Whether you are weary or not interested, that is your choice brother. I however, have a passion that grows as I learn from Scripture the hand of God and how He works throught Christ in all men.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/12/5 19:52Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Br. Ron wrote:

Quote:
I think also that you have misunderstood the intent of the referrenced sermon. David Wilkerson is using Abraham and Joshua as types.



A theologian describes the examples given to us in the OT Scripture as types and shadows. I believe what many call types and shadows in the OT are also types and shadows in the NT. It is only through understanding the precepts, ordinances, commandments, judgements, statutes, and testimonies of God does one begin to know the experiences that Scripture speaks to.

You see, the Holy Spirit, our counselor, does not speak on His own authority, but that which proceeds from Christ. The main thoughts that one will learn about is: the righteousness of Christ, the wickedness of Satan and his world, and our own sin that seperates us from Him.

The bible school started by David Wilkerson states as part of it's mission:

"God is raising up laborers after His heart, people who will know who they are in Christ and know the voice of God for themselves. This is part of the vision of Mt. Zion: to raise up laborers who are fully yielded to the Lord and walking in love relationship with Him. In the beginning stages of Mt. Zion School of Ministry, the class was small but was also hungry to seek God and know His heart. God has been faithful to fulfill His Word, as those very same students, who came seeking nothing but to know and love God fully, have been sent out to various nations sharing the love of God."

This is just part of the mission statement for this school. The point of listing it is to highlight this precept: "people who will know who they are in Christ and know the voice of God for themselves." It is the voice of God that brings unity in Christ. To understand that all faith must come through Christ is to understand that no faith can exist without Christ. And faith comes by hearing the word of God.

Brother Ron you disagree with many not just a few. May Christ gives us all understanding that would cause us to die daily and be filled with His words.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/12/5 20:23Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Br. Robert wrote a few pages ago:

Quote:
Quote:
The law in my opinion was written on stone tablets as a symbol of their stoney hearts. You can only write so much on stone. It would stand to reason that if it was limited in what it could do in that it was weak through the flesh- it could never make anyone perfect; especially as pertains unto the conscience. People used to fear death under the Old Covenant. Only the blood of Christ can purge the conscience and only a life of Walking in the Spirit can keep that conscience clean. These are what make up the end of the commandment. Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned (I Timothy 1:5) The Law taught us what love is and is not; yet under the Old Covenant we cannot find how to perform that love. The conscience could likewise never be purged by the blood of goats and calves. Unfeigned faith is the means that all this comes about; not by the works of the Law. For by the works of the Law shall no one be justified.



Paul writes this to Timothy:

2Tim. 1:3 I thank God, whom I serve with a pure conscience, as my forefathers did, as without ceasing I remember you in my prayers night and day,..."

What forefathers is Paul refering to? Who posseses a pure conscience and by what means do one come to possess this testimony?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2004/12/13 15:57Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Bro. Jeff,

The question in this verse to me is how should apo be translated and situated in the sentence. Bro. Ron could probably give is the scoop on the verse. I know it is generally not translated as is the NAS.

I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers in a pure conscience, how unceasing is my remembrance of thee in my supplications, night and day (ASV)

I am thankful to God, whom I serve from my forefathers with pure conscience, how unceasingly I have the remembrance of thee in my supplications night and day, (DBY)

I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers with pure conscience, that without ceasing I have remembrance of thee in my prayers night and day; (KJV)


I am thankful to God, whom I serve from progenitors in a pure conscience, that unceasingly I have remembrance concerning thee in my supplications night and day. (YLT)

We have to also consider that it was not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats could cleanse the conscience. If the first covenant had been faultless there had never been a need for the second. Count the number of times the word "better" is used in Hebrews:


Heb 1:4 -
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.


Heb 7:7 -
And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.

Heb 7:19 -
For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Heb 7:22 -
By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Heb 8:6 -
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Heb 9:23 -
It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.


Heb 11:16 -
But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Heb 11:35 -
Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

Heb 11:40 -
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Heb 12:24 -
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


Everything is better about the New Covenant. The objective of the making of the spirits of just men perfect stays the same it is the means or covenant that had to be changed.


God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/12/13 16:29Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Br. Robert,

What does: "whom I serve from my forefathers in a pure conscience," mean to you?

Also, 2 Timothy 1:

9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

When was the promise of life in Christ Jesus established? What does Scripture say to those who share in His inheritance?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2004/12/13 16:51Profile





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