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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : The Jewish Roots of the Christian Faith

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RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Have you noticed that God only ever has one official residence on earth at a time? Tabernacle, Solomon’s Temple, Zerubbabel’s Temple, Christ, The Church. Zerubbabel’s and Herod’s Temples were really empty shrines the Ark of the Presence having disappeared at the destruction of Solomon’s Temple in 587 BC.

From that time on the Presence was never present in the Temples of Zerubbabel and Herod, but gloriously so in Christ and in His Church



Good point!

Say, I was in class once and heard a discussion on the Temple and Tabernacle, etc. as models for the Heavenly Temple. One point they made is that as you would walk into the Tabernacle towards the Holy of Holies that there was a feeling of ascending- more like the horizontal Temple was a type of a verticle approach to God.

Have you ever heard that?


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/11/30 9:03Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Say, I was in class once and heard a discussion on the Temple and Tabernacle, etc. as models for the Heavenly Temple. One point they made is that as you would walk into the Tabernacle towards the Holy of Holies that there was a feeling of ascending- more like the horizontal Temple was a type of a verticle approach to God.



The Tabernacle of course had no floor. Its construction with its bars and rods suggests that the ground upon which it was pitched would need to have been fairly level.

There were certainly steps in Herod's Temple. Solomon's palace had steps [b]And there were six steps to the throne, with a footstool of gold, which were fastened to the throne, and stays on each side of the sitting place, and two lions standing by the stays: [/b] (2Ch 9:18 KJV) but the wonderful thing about our approach to God is that we can come at the level we are at, as long as we come through the torn veil.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/11/30 9:16Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Sorry Bro, what I meant to say was that when you are walking through the Tabernacle it was a verticle demonstration of ascending into the Heavens up to God's throne, though the ground was flat.

Thanks,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/11/30 9:32Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Sorry Bro, what I meant to say was that when you are walking through the Tabernacle it was a verticle demonstration of ascending into the Heavens up to God's throne, though the ground was flat.


OK. certainly it is a symbol of approach, outer court, inner house, inmost house. It is a chieftains mobile palace. His people have access to the outer courts of his tent. His chief servants have access to the ante-throne room; here they stand to minister... God alone is permitted to sit in the throne room.

This symbol of segmented approach to God is throughtout heathendom. I remember teaching a group of Tibetans and ex Hindus in N India about the Tabernacle. I created a courtyard with hymnbooks and 'stepped' them through approach to God, watching all the time to see if they were understanding what I was saying. I confess I thought some of the concepts would be new to them.

Afterwards one of their leaders took me out to deserted village with an abandoned and ruined Hindu temple. It OK to come in said. As I approached he said this is the courtyard where the people were allowed to stand. As we moved further in he said this is the inner house where only the priests were allowed to come. In the centre of the ruined room there was a small square shrine. He said can you see who is within it? It was Ganesh the hidious elephant God. Only 'god' he said was allowed in the innermost house.

I shook my head in disbelief. We understood what you were telling us, he said. We have lived with it.

Even the wicked distortions of the Vandal cannot obliterate every truth. But what a wonder as types and shadows take their rightful place and through the torn veil we access God's own glorious being and presence. [b]Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. [/b] (Heb 10:19-22 KJV)


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Ron Bailey

 2004/11/30 9:58Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Brothers:

Listen to the promise God gave those whom He caused to return from their captivity.

Jeremiah 29:

10 For thus says the LORD: After seventy years are completed at Babylon, I will visit you and perform My good word toward you, and cause you to return to this place. 11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope. 12 Then you will call upon Me and go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. 13 And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart. 14 I will be found by you, says the LORD, and I will bring you back from your captivity; I will gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you, says the LORD, and I will bring you to the place from which I cause you to be carried away captive."

The books of Ezra, Nehemiah, Haggai, and Zechariah speak of this time.

Now listen to the result of the Lord's work in that generation:

9 They shall come with weeping,
And with supplications I will lead them.
I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters,
In a straight way in which they shall not stumble;
For I am a Father to Israel,
And Ephraim is My firstborn.
10 “Hear the word of the LORD, O nations,
And declare it in the isles afar off, and say,
‘He who scattered Israel will gather him,
And keep him as a shepherd does his flock.’
11 For the LORD has redeemed Jacob,
And ransomed him from the hand of one stronger than he.
12 Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion,
Streaming to the goodness of the LORD—
For wheat and new wine and oil,
For the young of the flock and the herd;
Their souls shall be like a well-watered garden,
And they shall sorrow no more at all. "

Again listen:

14 I will satiate the soul of the priests with abundance,
And My people shall be satisfied with My goodness, says the LORD.”


How does God satisfy these people?

What does this mean?

Jeremiah 31:22

22 How long will you gad about,
O you backsliding daughter?
For the LORD has created a new thing in the earth—
A woman shall encompass a man.”

What is this [b]new thing in the earth?[/b]

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/11/30 11:29Profile
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
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 Re:

Quote:
What is this new thing in the earth?

It is the new thing made possible by a change in the heavens. [b]And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.[/b] (Rev 21:5 KJV)
Revelation 4 & 5 expoung John's earlier promise;[b]'He who [u]overcomes[/u], I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. [/b](Rev 3:21 NASB) John then sees this acted out in [b]and one of the elders *said to me, "Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has [u]overcome[/u] so as to open the book and its seven seals."[/b] (Rev 5:5 NASB)

The throne of God, in Rev 4, has become the throne of God and of the Lamb in Rev 5:13. (7:10,17) The theme of Revelation becomes that of God and the Lamb. This heavenly event referenced in Hebrews [b]Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;[/b] (Heb 1:3 KJV) is the theme of Peter's pentecost message. God has taken the victor into the throne. God hath made Him both Lord and Christ. He hath poured forth this which ye now see and hear...

It was only when the throne became the Throne of God and of the Lamb that the river issued forth from it; [b]And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of [i]the throne of God and of the Lamb[/i]. [/b](Rev 22:1 KJV) This is Peter's message, and that of Hebrews and in its own way that of Jeremiah.

Hebrews declares [b]for where a covenant is , the death of the covenant-victim to come in is necessary, for a covenant over dead victims is stedfast, since it is no force at all when the covenant-victim liveth, [/b] (Heb 9:16-17 YLT) The New Covenant was 'in His blood' until that blood was shed in the death of the covenant victim the New Covenant was not 'in force'.

In would be only 'in those days' (Jer 31:29) that the power of congenital sin would be brought to an end. The heart would no longer be [b]graven with the point of a diamond' and be 'crooked and incurable' (Jer 17:1, 9) but would have the law of God written on it. Christ looked forward to it and said 'in that day'. Peter declared it with all the power of the herald.. this is that. The Day of Pentecost had fully come.






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Ron Bailey

 2004/11/30 13:59Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Br Ron wrote:

Quote:
In would be only 'in those days' (Jer 31:29) that the power of congenital sin would be brought to an end. The heart would no longer be [b]graven with the point of a diamond' and be 'crooked and incurable' (Jer 17:1, 9) but would have the law of God written on it. Christ looked forward to it and said 'in that day'. Peter declared it with all the power of the herald.. this is that. The Day of Pentecost had fully come.




I see that Scripture in Jeremiah 29 through 31 speaks to the nation Israel that is held captive according to God's will. The book of Hebrews states that Christ offers this New Covenant to the Jews who are in Jerusalem during the time the Epistle is written to them. What I do not understand is this: There was no return of the captives during the time the book of Hebrews was written.

Do you have any thoughts on this matter?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/11/30 18:14Profile
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Br. Ron wrote:

Quote:
The throne of God, in Rev 4, has become the throne of God and of the Lamb in Rev 5:13. (7:10,17) The theme of Revelation becomes that of God and the Lamb. This heavenly event referenced in Hebrews Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; (Heb 1:3 KJV) is the theme of Peter's pentecost message. God has taken the victor into the throne. God hath made Him both Lord and Christ. He hath poured forth this which ye now see and hear...



In terms of rulership when did Christ rule according to Psalm 2:

Psa. 2:1 Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us.”
4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
The LORD shall hold them in derision.
5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath,
And distress them in His deep displeasure:
6 “Yet I have set My King
On My holy hill of Zion.”
7 “I will declare the decree:
The LORD has said to Me,
‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron;
You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’ ”
10 Now therefore, be wise, O kings;
Be instructed, you judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear,
And rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry,
And you perish in the way,
When His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.


In terms of your thoughts as to when the Hebrew experiences the redeeming work of Christ, does the promise to enter into His rest speak of the New Covenant?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/12/1 12:44Profile
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Br. Robert wrote:

Quote:
The law in my opinion was written on stone tablets as a symbol of their stoney hearts. You can only write so much on stone. It would stand to reason that if it was limited in what it could do in that it was weak through the flesh- it could never make anyone perfect; especially as pertains unto the conscience. People used to fear death under the Old Covenant. Only the blood of Christ can purge the conscience and only a life of Walking in the Spirit can keep that conscience clean. These are what make up the end of the commandment. Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned (I Timothy 1:5) The Law taught us what love is and is not; yet under the Old Covenant we cannot find how to perform that love. The conscience could likewise never be purged by the blood of goats and calves. Unfeigned faith is the means that all this comes about; not by the works of the Law. For by the works of the Law shall no one be justified.



Based on what you wrote, how then did the OT saints recieve a circumcised heart?

Listen to Ezekiel 44:

Ezek. 44:4 Also He brought me by way of the north gate to the front of the temple; so I looked, and behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house of the LORD; and I fell on my face. 5 And the LORD said to me, “Son of man, mark well, see with your eyes and hear with your ears, all that I say to you concerning all the ordinances of the house of the LORD and all its laws. Mark well who may enter the house and all who go out from the sanctuary.

Ezek. 44:6 “Now say to the rebellious, to the house of Israel, “Thus says the Lord GOD: ‘O house of Israel, let Us have no more of all your abominations. 7 When you brought in foreigners, uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in My sanctuary to defile it—My house—and when you offered My food, the fat and the blood, then they broke My covenant because of all your abominations. 8 And you have not kept charge of My holy things, but you have set others to keep charge of My sanctuary for you.” 9 Thus says the Lord GOD: “No foreigner, uncircumcised in heart or uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter My sanctuary, including any foreigner who is among the children of Israel.

The ordinance of God required that those who served in the Temple have a circumcised heart. Now if God required it how did God make provisions for man to obey this ordinance?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/12/1 14:16Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
In terms of your thoughts as to when the Hebrew experiences the redeeming work of Christ, does the promise to enter into His rest speak of the New Covenant?



I’m not sure I understand the question. I make no distinction between Hebrew and non-Hebrew. But in the terms of ‘rulership’ indicated at the beginning of your post, I would see that as being from the time that the Father ‘made Him both Lord and Christ’ at His ascension and enthronement. [b] This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. [/b] (Act 2:32-36 KJV)

We have a linear sequence of events here; rejection, resurrection, ascension, enthronement, outpouring. The rejected stone has become the head of the corner; [b] God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.[/b]


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Ron Bailey

 2004/12/1 14:18Profile





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