The Jewish Roots of the Christian Faith

Featured Sermon

Revive Us Again by Duncan Campbell

Login

Who's Online

There are currently, 101 guest(s) and 1 member(s) that are online.

Lordoitagain

You are an anonymous user.
Register Now!

Main Menu

· Home
· About Us
· Audio Sermons
    by Speaker
    by Topic
    by Scripture
    by Podcast
    by Revival
· Text Sermons
    Christian Books
    Online Bibles
· Video Sermons
· Vintage Images
· Discussion Forum
· Help Support
· Contact Us

Download free audio sermons

Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : The Jewish Roots of the Christian Faith

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 Next Page )

Poster

Thread

rookie
Member

Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4445
Hershey PA

Re:

To what generation is this promise given?

Ezekiel 11

16 Therefore say, “Thus says the Lord GOD: ‘Although I have cast them far off among the Gentiles, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet I shall be a little sanctuary for them in the countries where they have gone.” ’ 17 Therefore say, “Thus says the Lord GOD: ‘I will gather you from the peoples, assemble you from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.” ’ 18 And they will go there, and they will take away all its detestable things and all its abominations from there. 19 Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God. 21 But as for those whose hearts follow the desire for their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their deeds on their own heads,” says the Lord GOD."

Can the law given on Mount Sinai take the heart of stone out of this generation?

In Christ
Jeff

_________________
Jer 15:16 Your words were found, and I ate them, And Your word was to me the joy and rejoicing of my heart; For I am called by Your name, O LORD God of hosts.

2004/11/29 11:30

Profile

rookie
Member

Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4445
Hershey PA

Re:

Scripture teaches that God's promise is given in each generation.

7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations,

How does this precept, "in their generations," manifest itself in our understanding of His ways?

In Christ
Jeff

_________________
Jer 15:16 Your words were found, and I ate them, And Your word was to me the joy and rejoicing of my heart; For I am called by Your name, O LORD God of hosts.

2004/11/29 11:40

Profile

RobertW
Moderator

Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4550
Independence, Missouri

Re:

Quote:

herefore say, “Thus says the Lord GOD: ‘Although I have cast them far off among the Gentiles, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet I shall be a little sanctuary for them in the countries where they have gone.

Hi Bro Jeff,

This is generally the passage cited to demonstrate the Biblical history of the Synagogue and the institution of the Scribes.

The middle section has been dealt with in some of the Eschatological threads.

Quote:

Can the law given on Mount Sinai take the heart of stone out of this generation?

The law in my opinion was written on stone tablets as a symbol of their stoney hearts. You can only write so much on stone. It would stand to reason that if it was limited in what it could do in that it was weak through the flesh- it could never make anyone perfect; especially as pertains unto the conscience. People used to fear death under the Old Covenant. Only the blood of Christ can purge the conscience and only a life of Walking in the Spirit can keep that conscience clean. These are what make up the end of the commandment. Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned (I Timothy 1:5) The Law taught us what love is and is not; yet under the Old Covenant we cannot find how to perform that love. The conscience could likewise never be purged by the blood of goats and calves. Unfeigned faith is the means that all this comes about; not by the works of the Law. For by the works of the Law shall no one be justified.

God Bless,

-Robert

_________________
SermonIndex.net Moderator - Robert Wurtz II

Obedience is better esteemed with God than acquired knowledge, it is the most important lesson -fundamental to the gaining of all spiritual knowledge from God. (GW North)

2004/11/29 11:48

Profile

philologos
Member

Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

Re: Jewish Roots: Rich, Redemptive & Not Replaced

Quote:

Greek uses two words for "new" - "kainos" and "neos." "Neos" as you know, means something which has never before existed. "Kainos" means freshness, renewal of something which has existed. This distinction is clearly captured by the Jewish disciple of YESHUA, Mattityahu (Matthew) at 9:16, 17 when he records YESHUA's teachings using the illustration of patching (adapting) an old coat with a fresh cloth and new (neos) wine in fresh (kainos) wineskins. With that preliminary, but brief, groundwork of understanding and your agreement of the understanding that the verses you quote in KJV (8:13 and 10:9) cannot be removed from the context of the section 7:1-10:18, then we can slowly move on.

I have posted earlier on the distinction between the words ‘kainos’ and ‘neos’ but I want to further say why ‘kainos’ cannot bear the unique weight you are laying upon it. The Revelation Johns writes [b] And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. [/b] (Rev 21:1 KJV) This is ‘kainos’. While it is certainly true that there had been a heaven and earth before that which John sees is not ‘renewal’ but ‘regeneration’. It has the familiar signs of regeneration; the old heaven and earth have ‘passed away’. In other words the use of ‘kainos’ here is very instructive being joined as in Hebrews with the word for ‘first’.
[b] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. [/b] (Heb 10:9 KJV)
This use of ‘kainos’ is sustained in Paul; [b] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a [u]new[/u] creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. [/b] 5:17 KJV) Here again the new creation produced in regeneration is not the ‘old’ refreshed but the ‘old’ replaced.

In Paul, the old passes away and the new creation is brought in.
In Hebrews He takes away the first that He may establish the second,
In the Revelation He takes away the old creation and brings in the new (kainos).

The new is not built upon the old, and is not the ‘old’ refreshed. There had been a previous covenant so ‘kaivos’ is entirely suitable for ‘replacement’ theology but to say ‘kainos’ implies a ‘refreshed’ covenant is not sustainable.

_________________
His/yours
Ron B
www.biblebase.com

"Love perfecteth what it begins;
 Thy power doth save me from my sins; 
Thy grace upholdeth me. 
This life of trust, how glad, how sweet; 
My need and Thy great fulness meet, 
And I have all in Thee.

Jean Sophia Pigott (1845-1882)

2004/11/29 12:34

Profile

philologos
Member

Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

Re:

Quote:

The Law was given after they, the people Israel had disobeyed His voice. How often do we disobey His voice?

Believe the Scriptures and not the traditions of men.

I don't know what traditions you are referring to. But can you not see that there are plainly two covenants contrasted in Jeremiah 31:31?

2004/11/29 12:37

Profile

philologos
Member

Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

Re:

Quote:

Can the law given on Mount Sinai take the heart of stone out of this generation?

Of course not that is why it is the promise of a new work of God referred to by Jeremiah as a New Covenant and by Ezekiel as 'God making them His people'; this is not the Sinai people of God, qahal of God, but the New People of God, the church of Christ.

2004/11/29 12:40

Profile

philologos
Member

Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

Re:

Quote:

Scripture teaches that God's promise is given in each generation.

7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations,

How does this precept, "in their generations," manifest itself in our understanding of His ways?

I agree with you that this is a vital part of the Abrahamic covenant, but the Abrahamic Covenant is not the same as that established on Sinai.

2004/11/29 12:42

Profile

rookie
Member

Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4445
Hershey PA

Re:

Br. Robert wrote:

Quote:

This is generally the passage cited to demonstrate the Biblical history of the Synagogue and the institution of the Scribes.

Nehemiah 1:

8 Remember, I pray, the word that You commanded Your servant Moses, saying, “If you are unfaithful, I will scatter you among the nations; 9 but if you return to Me, and keep My commandments and do them, though some of you were cast out to the farthest part of the heavens, yet I will gather them from there, and bring them to the place which I have chosen as a dwelling for My name.’ 10 Now these are Your servants and Your people, whom You have redeemed by Your great power, and by Your strong hand. 11 O Lord, I pray, please let Your ear be attentive to the prayer of Your servant, and to the prayer of Your servants who desire to fear Your name; and let Your servant prosper this day, I pray, and grant him mercy in the sight of this man.”

Nehemiah identifies the generation of his time as fulfilling the promise of spoken to Ezekiel. "Now these are Your servants and Your people, whom You have redeemed by Your great power, and by Your strong hand."

Also in Haggai 2:

4 Yet now be strong, Zerubbabel,’ says the LORD; “and be strong, Joshua, son of Jehozadak, the high priest; and be strong, all you people of the land,’ says the LORD, ‘and work; for I am with you,’ says the LORD of hosts. 5 “According to the word that I covenanted with you when you came out of Egypt, so My Spirit remains among you; do not fear!’

Hag. 2:6 “For thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘Once more (it is a little while) I will shake heaven and earth, the sea and dry land; 7 and I will shake all nations, and they shall come to the Desire of All Nations, and I will fill this temple with glory,’ says the LORD of hosts. 8 “The silver is Mine, and the gold is Mine,’ says the LORD of hosts. 9 “The glory of this latter temple shall be greater than the former,’ says the LORD of hosts. ‘And in this place I will give peace,’ says the LORD of hosts.”

Did not the second temple exceed the first? And there will be another latter temple.

In Christ
Jeff

_________________
Jer 15:16 Your words were found, and I ate them, And Your word was to me the joy and rejoicing of my heart; For I am called by Your name, O LORD God of hosts.

2004/11/29 15:24

Profile

RobertW
Moderator

Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4550
Independence, Missouri

Re:

Hi Bro. Jeff,

Yes, these Jews are typically what we know as the Diaspora. They went into nations building little temples or synagogues. Each synagogue needed their own Torah scroll. This brought in a new institution known as the scribes. They were copy experts. There are some awesome historical things about this that I may deal with at some point. The synagogues were to be built on the highest possible hill in the town as to be easily seen.

Quote:

Did not the second temple exceed the first? And there will be another latter temple.

I would say it did not. I seem to recall that the people wept when they compared Zerubabel's Temple to Solomon's. When the foundation was laid, the old men, who had seen the "first house" (Solomon's temple), wept for sorrow (Haggai 2:3), but the young men, who had been born in exile, shouted for joy (Ezra 3:12) Eschatologically, I believe there will be another temple rebuilt. There have already been 3 temples not including The Body of Christ or the Temple in Heaven or the Wilderness Tabernacle.

There was Solomon's and then Zerubabbel's (Your Haggai passage deals in part with it). Then there was Herod's Temple that was never completed. I believe the final Temple will be rebuilt prior to the advent of the AntiChrist. I don't really fit the Tim Lahaye and Hal Lindsey mold in this, but I think a Temple will be necessary to bring this age to a close. Hope we don't have to get into all that. :-?

God Bless,

-Robert

2004/11/30 5:44

Profile

philologos
Member

Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

Re:

Quote:

Yes, these Jews are typically what we know as the Diaspora. They went into nations building little temples or synagogues. Each synagogue needed their own Torah scroll. This brought in a new institution known as the scribes. They were copy experts. There are some awesome historical things about this that I may deal with at some point. The synagogues were to be built on the highest possible hill in the town as to be easily seen.

There is a fundamental difference between a Temple and Synogogue. The Temple was built to house God, synagogues were built to house people. The first was a Palace for a King, complete with Throne and chief ministers. The second was a meeting house for people.

Quote:

There have already been 3 temples not including The Body of Christ or the Temple in Heaven or the Wilderness Tabernacle.

Have you noticed that God only ever has one official residence on earth at a time? Tabernacle, Solomon’s Temple, Zerubbabel’s Temple, Christ, The Church. Zerubbabel’s and Herod’s Temples were really empty shrines the Ark of the Presence having disappeared at the destruction of Solomon’s Temple in 587 BC. From this time too the majority of Jews have lived outside the Promised Land as the Diaspora - the dispersed. [b]The Jews then said to one another, "Where does this man intend to go that we will not find Him? He is not intending to go to the Dispersion among the Greeks, and teach the Greeks, is He? [/b] (Joh 7:35 NASB)

The largest number of Jews in the Roman Empire lived outside the borders of the Holy Land. Known as the Diaspora, or the Dispersion, they were found in almost all of the large cities from Babylon to Rome and in many of the smaller settelments also, where-ever commerce or colonisation had taken them. The scattering of the Jewish people began with the captivity of the northern kingdom on 721 BC when Sargon of Assyria deported the inhabitants of Israel and settled them in new colonies in Assyria. The southern kingdom of Judah was conquered by Babylon in 597 BC and many of the upper class were carried away to Babylon. A second and third deportation followed, leaving only the poorest people of the land unmolested. Although several thousand returned from exile in the restoration under Ezra and Nehemiah, a large number chose to remain in the land of their captivity where they had established themselves and had begun to prosper.

From that time on the Presence was never present in the Temples of Zerubbabel and Herod, but gloriously so in Christ and in His Church.

2004/11/30 5:59

Profile