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CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

LittleGift wrote:
Here the temptation is for some - even some Jews - to deny that modern Israel has [i]any[/i] special place any more in God's plan for the nations. The idea that [i]God[/i] was fulfilling His Word in 1948 is rejected by those who hold this view. Even though Scripture shows that He often uses men and political situations (as Satan does also) to bring about His will among nations.

This is also a form of anti-semitism, or perhaps more correctly anti-Zionism.


Quote:

Katy-did wrote:
I do know Isaiah 14 has not been fulfilled, as the world or earth does not or has never (Yet anyway)had peace ( the whole world or earth is at rest)..yet.


Jeannette,

Your probably going to think that I am stalking you here, but this issue is one of such incredible importance, that to miss this is to potential miss the crux of the heartbeat of the very character of God. So far I have been intentionally vague, hoping that you will examine what has been put before you, and draw you own conclusions.

You seem to has the idea that the issue of rejecting Zionism is to ignore God's involvement in the events of 1948. This is not the case. It is more a matter of correctly interpreting what God was actually fulfilling, by His establishing of a political sphere within the land that He has chosen for His chosen people. Many assume that this was the promised return to the land, as spoken by the prophets, and will ultimately usher in the return of the Lord. The basis of this assumption is that they read a portion of Scripture (unaware of where it specifically is, myself) that apparently implies that He will return within a generation of Israel's restoration.

Could it not be said that Israel could have made such an assumption when Ezra and Nehemiah restored the Hebrew nation, and rebuilt the temple? The problem is, the prophets pointed to an ultimate fulfilment, where the Law would go forth out of Zion, and the swords would be beaten into plowshares, because men would not learn war anymore. Obviously this did not occur, and so this could not have been such an ultimate fulfilment, which means that there must have been another to follow.

We find also, in 1948 that many prophetic conditions were not met, including there being a holocaust where 1/3 of the world's Jewish population perished, when the prophets told us that 2/3 would die. I highlighted the portion of Katy-did's post, because this statement serves as a "smoking gun", although none of her statements can be separated from each other.

It is within the scope of prophetic interpretation that God could be involved in the establishment of the Zionist state, as He was directly involved in the raising up of Assyria for the invasion of Israel. Consider the fact that God actually sent a reluctant prophet into the Assyrian capital, and that prophet's reluctance was rooted in the fact that he knew that if the Ninevites repented in response to his warnings, then God would spare them from His impending wrath. You can draw your own conclusions as to the relevance of such a comparison being made;-).

Again I recommend the [url=http://www.benisrael.org/writings/online_books/holocaust_where_was_God/shoah_contents.html]Holocaust Book[/url]. Or even an article that I wrote called [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16522&forum=36&14]The Cleansing of the Sanctuary[/url]. To be honest, there is much that I could amend in this article, having seen much to add to this understanding of Israel and the church, in the past month or so, but it it serves as a good primer.

It is possible that the churches very integrity could be made or broken over its comprehension of its place in this cosmic drama. To miss this, could mean to miss the very intention of God in His grafting of the Gentiles into His Hebrew vineyard.


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2007/6/2 0:44Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:
LittleGift wrote:
The point is, [i]are we ready[/i] for Jesus' return? rather than "how what when and where". Although I think we should have some idea of that too, so we can recognise what's going to happen when it does.


Just an addendum to my previous post, it isn't a matter of "how what when and where", but "why". To us has been given the mysteries, amongst them the mystery of Israel, that we may be stewards of them. It is a cop out to ignore the mysteries based on their "mysteriousness", for as Paul wrote to the Corinthians, "who has known the mind of the Lord the we may instruct Him? But [b]we have the mind of Christ.[/b]"

To ignore the issue of Israel, and its component in eschatology, even to ignore eschatology itself, is to risk neglecting a component of what God has revealed to us by His Spirit. Could this constitute a possible "burying of the talent" that God has given to us? (Mat 25:24-30)
Quote:
The secret [i]things[/i] belong unto the LORD our God: but those [i]things which[/i] are revealed [i]belong[/i] unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.
[b]Deut 29:29[/b]


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2007/6/2 1:06Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Terms, spiritual defenitions

Quote:
What is a Jew?



For he is [u]not[/u] a Jew, which is one [u]outwardly[/u]; [i]neither[/i] is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But [u]he is[/u] a Jew, which is one [u]inwardly[/u]; and circumcision [i]is[/i] that of [u]the heart, in the spirit[/u], and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Rom 2:28,29


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/6/2 9:52Profile









 Re:

Quote:

crsschk wrote:
Quote:
What is a Jew?



For he is [u]not[/u] a Jew, which is one [u]outwardly[/u]; [i]neither[/i] is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But [u]he is[/u] a Jew, which is one [u]inwardly[/u]; and circumcision [i]is[/i] that of [u]the heart, in the spirit[/u], and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Rom 2:28,29

Hi Mike

You are right of course. I quoted or referred to this scripture fairly recently on the same context - probably in another thread, or in a pm…

But, until the Lord returns, and [i]all[/i] things are finally summed up in Him, there are two aspects to consider: two Israels, not one, two Jerusalems, not one, two chosen peoples, not one.

I’m beginning to believe that this is connected to an important spiritual principle of its own, that is much broader than the Israel question itself:

But these [i]thinks[/i] take so much time. I wanted to look at and respond to another of your posts on the “Jews against Zionism” thread, but just haven’t been able yet.


Blessings


Jeannette

 2007/6/2 12:44









 Re:

Hi Aaron, here is an attempt to respond to your last posts.

Quote:
CJaKfOrEsT wrote
LittleGift wrote:
Quote:

Here the temptation is for some - even some Jews - to deny that modern Israel has any special place any more in God's plan for the nations. The idea that God was fulfilling His Word in 1948 is rejected by those who hold this view. Even though Scripture shows that He often uses men and political situations (as Satan does also) to bring about His will among nations.

This is also a form of anti-semitism, or perhaps more correctly anti-Zionism.



Quote:
Katy-did wrote:
I do know Isaiah 14 has not been fulfilled, as the world or earth does not or has never (Yet anyway)had peace ( the whole world or earth is at rest)..yet.


Jeannette,

Your probably going to think that I am stalking you here,

No, actually I don’t! I was waiting for a response to my request to simplify things, but you seem not to have read it! :-P I downloaded, and copied and printed the whole of your transcript of Jacob Prasch’s “The Future History of the Church”, and understood it, but I often can’t understand your style of writing for some reason!
Quote:
but this issue is one of such incredible importance, that to miss this is to potential miss the crux of the heartbeat of the very character of God. So far I have been intentionally vague, hoping that you will examine what has been put before you, and draw you own conclusions.

Mmm, so vague that I still don’t know if you fundamentally disagree, or if you agree but think I’ve missed something!
Quote:
You seem to have the idea that the issue of rejecting Zionism is to ignore God's involvement in the events of 1948.

I think it is, for some people, but have no idea where you personally stand on this.
Quote:
This is not the case. It is more a matter of correctly interpreting what God was actually fulfilling, by His establishing of a political sphere within the land that He has chosen for His chosen people. Many assume that this was the promised return to the land, as spoken by the prophets, and will ultimately usher in the return of the Lord. The basis of this assumption is that they read a portion of Scripture (unaware of where it specifically is, myself) that apparently implies that He will return within a generation of Israel's restoration.

Do you mean Jesus’ words (in Matthew 24, I think) “This generation will not pass away until these things are fulfilled”?

Interpretation of this depends on what is meant by “generation”, and whether it means the whole of what Jesus was telling them or only a part. The New Testament believers thought it meant [i]all[/i] would be fulfilled, including Jesus’ return, in their lifetime, or before the last apostle, who had seen Jesus in the flesh, died. And of course, in 70 AD part of this passage – the warning of Jerusalem’s destruction - was fulfilled (unless there is another fulfilment still to come?) But the rest wasn’t fulfilled then, as Jesus still hasn’t returned (full Preterists think He has!)
Quote:
Could it not be said that Israel could have made such an assumption when Ezra and Nehemiah restored the Hebrew nation, and rebuilt the temple?

Of course, they probably did! (see what I wrote above on “this generation…”)
Quote:
The problem is, the prophets pointed to an ultimate fulfilment, where the Law would go forth out of Zion, and the swords would be beaten into plowshares, because men would not learn war anymore. Obviously this did not occur, and so this could not have been such an ultimate fulfilment, which means that there must have been another to follow.

Exactly! I have never denied this fact. There are, no doubt, many Biblical prophecies that haven’t been fully fulfilled yet. In the present context, there is, for example, the one about [i]all[/i] nations coming against Jerusalem. 70 AD could have been a partial fulfilment, (as could the earlier Assyrian invasion in the time of Hezekiah).
Quote:
We find also, in 1948 that many prophetic conditions were not met, including there being a holocaust where 1/3 of the world's Jewish population perished, when the prophets told us that 2/3 would die. I highlighted the portion of Katy-did's post, because this statement serves as a "smoking gun", although none of her statements can be separated from each other.

It is within the scope of prophetic interpretation that God could be involved in the establishment of the Zionist state, as He was directly involved in the raising up of Assyria for the invasion of Israel. Consider the fact that God actually sent a reluctant prophet into the Assyrian capital, and that prophet's reluctance was rooted in the fact that he knew that if the Ninevites repented in response to his warnings, then God would spare them from His impending wrath. You can draw your own conclusions as to the relevance of such a comparison being made.

True, did I [i]say[/i] that 1948 was the ultimate fulfilment? I do believe it was an important step towards the ultimate fulfilment. Which is probably the main reason it’s significant in the purposes of God on the earth. I haven’t studied or thought this aspect through yet, as you obviously have, but that doesn’t mean my conclusions would necessarily be different from yours.

I still don’t know if we agree or not so far! :-?

Quote:
Again I recommend the Holocaust Book. Or even an article that I wrote called The Cleansing of the Sanctuary. To be honest, there is much that I could amend in this article, having seen much to add to this understanding of Israel and the church, in the past month or so, but it serves as a good primer.

I downloaded and have started to read the Holocaust book. It reminds me to pray for the writer to. Until joining SI, I never heard of him!
Quote:
[i][b]It is possible that the churches very integrity could be made or broken over its comprehension of its place in this cosmic drama[/b][/i]. To miss this, could mean to miss the very intention of God in His grafting of the Gentiles into His Hebrew vineyard.

You could be right there. A similar point is made in “the Future History of the Church” – that this was one of the 3 divisions that would come in the Church, and has already come. Joining SI has made me aware of this as never before!
Quote:
LittleGift wrote:
Quote:
The point is, are we ready for Jesus' return? rather than "how what when and where". Although I think we should have some idea of that too, so we can recognise what's going to happen when it does.


Just an addendum to my previous post, it isn't a matter of "how what when and where", but "why". To us has been given the mysteries, amongst them the mystery of Israel, that we may be stewards of them. It is a cop out to ignore the mysteries based on their "mysteriousness", for as Paul wrote to the Corinthians, "who has known the mind of the Lord that we may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ."

To ignore the issue of Israel, and its component in eschatology, even to ignore eschatology itself, is to risk neglecting a component of what God has revealed to us by His Spirit. Could this constitute a possible "burying of the talent" that God has given to us? (Mat 25:24-30)


I don’t quite understand what point you are making. Are you speaking generally here? Personally, I love seeing something of the “mystery” as the Lord reveals it to my heart – even if my [i]mind[/i] takes a while catching up – let alone being to explain it to others! I’m certainly not aware of doing a ‘cop-out”, or ignoring “the mysteries based on their "mysteriousness", or “neglecting a component of what God has revealed to us by His Spirit”.
Quote:
The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.
Deut 29:29

AMEN! Except that this was, of course, originally spoken of physical Israel re the [i]written[/i] Law. Although that doesn’t of course exclude the rest of us. As is written, “to the Jew first”.

Blessings

Jeannette


 2007/6/2 12:49









 Re: (Mike), Definitions etc

LittleGift wrote:

Quote:
But, until the Lord returns, and [i]all[/i] things are finally summed up in Him, there are two aspects to consider: two Israels, not one, two Jerusalems, not one, two chosen peoples, not one.

I’m beginning to believe that this is connected to an important spiritual principle of its own, that is much broader than the Israel question itself:



I started a new thread on this, because it is such a broad principle. "Binocular vision - Hebrews 11. http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=17225&post_id=134162&order=0&viewmode=flat&pid=0&forum=36#134162


Jeannette

P.S. Mike, It just occurred to me that saying "You are right of course" may have sounded a bit patronising. What I meant was that I agree with your answer to "what is a Jew"!

 2007/6/2 14:36
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Quote:
two chosen peoples, not one.



??

Ephesians 2.
" He made ONE new man out of the two." 2:16

... one body....

"One" seems to be a key word in Ephesians.

Who were the two spoken about in Ephesians?

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2007/6/2 16:25Profile









 Re:

Quote:

roadsign wrote:
Quote:
two chosen peoples, not one.


??
Ephesians 2.

" He made ONE new man out of the two." 2:16
... one body....

"One" seems to be a key word in Ephesians.

Who were the two spoken about in Ephesians?

Diane

The two spoken about in Ephesians are Jew and Gentile, one in Christ. Here the two groups are indeed one, as you say.

But what I called the two groups of "chosen" people are the physical and the spiritual. The spiritual people are those spoken of in Ephesians 2, the physical are the Jews. (Is it possible to belong to both categories? The answer maybe depends on one's definitions and use of words?)

The spiritual aspect is the greater of course, and the way of being "chosen" is the spiritual birth, rather than physical birth or religious prostelytism mode of entry to the other category.

And for certain, as Ephesians says, there is no longer any "middle wall of partition" between born-again Jew and Gentile.

Hope that makes my meaning clear. It's sometimes difficult to know how to express things in words that make sense to others.

Blessings

jeannette

 2007/6/2 16:44
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3705
Ca.

 Re:

Romans 3:19-31 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The Law brings those that are under the Law to Christ. The Holy Spirit brings us to the knowledge of sin and to Christ. All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.
The Law cannot save to the utmost, only Christ can save and He nailed the Law to His Cross that all might be saved by Grace through Faith. That is the Jew by Faith and the Gentile through Faith. The Jew by their faith which originates in God and the Gentile through the Faith of Jesus Christ that is born again in us.

Galatians 2:14-17 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

The Jews were and are saved by repentance and believing in Christ and being baptized with water. Salvation by faith.

The Gentiles are saved by believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and through the Faith of Jesus Christ are born again by Incorruptable Seed which is Christ the Word of God. Salvation through Faith.

Romans 3:29-31 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision (((by))) faith, and uncircumcision (((through)))

faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Yet in Christ there is neither Jew or Gentile, for we since the Cross are all baptized into one Spirit, not water.

1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

The living water He wanted to give the woman at the well.

Jhn 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Jhn 4:11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?

Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on Me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

The Incorruptable Seed of God the Father and river of Living Water Himself, Jesus Christ, that is our salvation, the mystery hidden until it was given to Paul by Jesus Christ Himself.

Colossians 1:26-28 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

We are not Hebrew Christians. We are son's of God by the Christ-One that is in us, Christ-ones by The Son of God Himself, not Jews or Gentiles.


In Christ: Phillip




_________________
Phillip

 2007/6/2 22:56Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
P.S. Mike, It just occurred to me that saying "You are right of course" may have sounded a bit patronising. What I meant was that I agree with your answer to "what is a Jew"!

No worriess ... never would have occured to me.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/6/3 0:30Profile





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