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 Re:

Quote:

Katy-did wrote:
When I hear "Replacement Theology", it seems many people think the Church replaced the promises to Israel. According to Romans 11, after the fulness of the gentiles have come in, then Israel will be saved. Acts 1:6&7 , Peter asked Jesus about when the Kingdom will be restored to Israel...Jesus didn't say it wouldn't or that it has been replaced with the Church, Jesus said it is not for us to know the time of that event. It seems as though the ones who believe in this kind of Replacement Theology are anti-semitic. Replacement/Reconstruction/Dominion Theology all go together, and many false gospels have sprung from these beliefs, believing we are going to be restored back to what Adam & Eve were before the fall. Even if Adam & Eve never sinned, they were never considered co-heirs, or promised to be Glorified together with Jesus Christ. The first man adam was a living soul and made from the dust/earth...earthly. The second man Adam, is a life giving spirit and Jesus Christ is heavenly.

We will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is. Bone of His Bone and Flesh of His flesh. A NEW Creation as never before. :-)

Hi Katy, welcome to SI (is that your real name? Or did you just get it from the "Katy" books - I loved tham as a child, although, not being American, it took me a long time to find out that a katydid was a kind of grasshoppper)

You might be intereseted in the thread on "Jews against Zionism" in the General Topics section. http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16797&post_id=130980&order=0&viewmode=flat&pid=130962&forum=35#130980


Excuse the long addy, I don't know how to make it brief! You can cut and paste, or look up the title in Search.


Blessings


jeannette

 2007/5/14 17:55









 Re: "replacement theology"

Katy-did said

Quote:
It seems as though the ones who believe in this kind of Replacement Theology are anti-semitic.

It is only if semites are excluded from the Church, that this can be considered anti-semitic, and who would want to exclude them? Certainly no-one who reads the New Testament with basic understanding.

Anti-semitism may well be a real force in many parts of the world, but I (for one) am most uncomfortable with [i]current[/i] accusations of anti-semitism [i]against the Church[/i]. There is no need for it. There is no [i]sense[/i] to it.

'Christians' who are racist show themselves in need of their mind being renewed and bringing it into line with scriptures such as

Revelation 5:9
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of [b][u]every[/u] kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation[/b];

 2007/5/15 11:35
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
It seems as though the ones who believe in this kind of Replacement Theology are anti-semitic.


Not all of us, I assure you. ;-)


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/5/15 13:57Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: Thanks Ron

Quote:
Theologically, the dividing wall was the Law


Thank you Ron for answering my question, “What is the ‘wall of hostility?”
The answer seems to be obvious in scripture.... yet.....

That raises questions in my mind:
Was it only God, through the covenant law, who had caused the division referred to in Eph. 2?
Or was it not also the Jewish religious leaders
who were going overboard in their “separation” theology (ex the inscription on the stone) -
ie the practice of ADDING laws?


Is there a good site in the Web that sheds some light on the history of this “wall of hostility”?

Is there a modern-day parallel? Ex: Religious rituals/ behaviors/ practises that are exclusive?
- those organizations who HAD the wonderful blessings, but became religous and separatist....
... things we do to make it hard for "outsiders" to become one of us, to understand the Good News, etc?

Would it be appropriate to make that parallel?

It sure seems like there are a lot of "walls of hostility" around - even among God's "replacements"
- walls that can only be broken down through Christ - making them one.

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2007/5/15 14:40Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

The giving of the Law, and this was God's doing, put a barrier around the covenant people of Israel. It separated them, the original meaning of 'sanctify' and set them apart as God's particular treasure. Although the whole world belonged to him he chose to make the Sinai Covenant people a holy (separated) people and a kingdom of priests.

That sense of separation has been one of the causes of anti-semitism down through the ages. The people of the Covenant 'dwelt alone' and such people make other people nervous.

This exclusivity of this covenant had responsibilities as well as special privileges.“You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.” (Amos 3:2 KJVS)That is to say, that greater revelation brings greater responsibility and the danger of greater judgement. (cf James 3:1 (NKJV) My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. )

Their failure to live up to the greater revelation brought the 'curse of the law'. In that sense the score which the law kept was a constant indictment to the people of the Covenant and hence Paul says “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;”(Colossians 2:14 KJVS)The 'us' here is the Sinai Covenant people.

Did the Pharisees add to the 'barrier'? In practical terms they did and they despised any Gentile access to the Temple site which was why they filled the Court of the Gentiles with a market. In the terms in which the scriptures speak however I think it is God's hedge that is in focus rather than that of the Pharisees.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/5/15 17:53Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: the hedge

Quote:
God had 'hedged' in his 'peculiar' people and expected fruit from them.



I had never thought about the “ wall” as a “hedge” , that is, a positive gift for Israel –
but, … dah…. it’s in scripture: “the law is holy” Rom. 7:12 .

“Is the law sinful? Certainly not!” Rom. 1:7

I assume that this “hedge” was also created so that Israel could a light to the world. (verse?) Ex: Rahab “got it”.

Quote:
their failure to live up to the greater revelation brought the 'curse of the law'. In that sense the score which the law kept was a constant indictment to the people of the



In Romans we see WHY this “hedge” was useless:
because apart from Christ all are “slaves to sin.” Rom. 6:20 Sin made that “hedge” (law) useless.

Sin made that “wall” a source of divisiveness and hostility –( an indication that Israel had failed to live up to the greater revelation).

How was this “curse” manifested? (nothing different than we see today)

Failure to consider others
Neglecting the oppressed, the needy, the hungry, fearful, lonely,
Divisiveness in worship rituals (1 Corinthians)
Selfish ambition
Discord
Legalism
straining gnats
symptoms of divisiveness – fractured unity:
religiosity (a self-focus)
favouritism
disunity
domination
avenging “enemies”

“For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one by destroying the barriers… “ Eph. 2:14
“In HIM you are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.” Eph. 2:22


_________________
Diane

 2007/5/16 8:19Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Quote:
“Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;”(Colossians 2:14 KJVS)
The 'us' here is the Sinai Covenant people.



Just them? So then, Rom. 7 does not apply to us: “we have been released from the law..” :6. I guess I had assumed that there is an aspect of God’s law that is universal – and we too cannot keep it apart from the new life in Christ ruled by the Spirit. I wonder why Paul makes such a point of the Old Covenant law even in his epistles to gentile believers.


Who are the “Sinai Covenant people” today? Surely we can’t refer to those who are referred to as “Jews” in the sense of those who adhere to Judaism, or an Israeli (political identity). And with genetic lineage to Jacob uncertain…… Also, the Jews have been welcoming proselytes for centuries.

What is a Jew?

It seems that today the “dividing wall of hostility” (anti-Semitism) is far removed from a linkage to the Sinai Covenant Law, or even the issues in Paul’s day – as there is no Temple, no sacrifices…. I think that there are other factors that fuel anti-Semetism.

Sorry for my confusion…. There just seems to be so many hazy ideas floating around in my mind.
Diane


_________________
Diane

 2007/5/16 9:25Profile









 Re: anti-semitism?

Quote:

roadsign wrote:
Quote:
“Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;”(Colossians 2:14 KJVS)
The 'us' here is the Sinai Covenant people.



Just them? So then, Rom. 7 does not apply to us: “we have been released from the law..” :6. I guess I had assumed that there is an aspect of God’s law that is universal – and we too cannot keep it apart from the new life in Christ ruled by the Spirit. I wonder why Paul makes such a point of the Old Covenant law even in his epistles to gentile believers.


Who are the “Sinai Covenant people” today? Surely we can’t refer to those who are referred to as “Jews” in the sense of those who adhere to Judaism, or an Israeli (political identity). And with genetic lineage to Jacob uncertain…… Also, the Jews have been welcoming proselytes for centuries.

What is a Jew?

It seems that today the “dividing wall of hostility” (anti-Semitism) is far removed from a linkage to the Sinai Covenant Law, or even the issues in Paul’s day – as there is no Temple, no sacrifices…. I think that there are other factors that fuel anti-Semetism.

Sorry for my confusion…. There just seems to be so many hazy ideas floating around in my mind.
Diane

Hi Diane

Just a few thoughts, summarising where I've got to so far on the matter:

1. Spiritually the New Birth brings us into the "Israel of God", Jew and Gentile together, and this means the "dividing wall" is removed.

Here the temptation is for one group to exalt themselves proudly against the other. Jews because of their special place in sacred history, non-Jews because most Jews rejected their Messiah, while many Gentiles received Him. In the latter case it is an aspect of anti-semitism.

2. Politically, (though it's actually a spiritual thing too) Satan hates Israel and the Jews, ([u]whether born again or not[/u]) because of what they represent. For whether they acknowledge the God of their ancestors or not, and whether they like it or not, they are witnesses, by their very existence, of the truth of God's word, and His fulfilled promises. Also, I would think Israel is unpleasant reminder to Satan of the One who came from that nation, and who "bruised his head", in spite of all his attacks and temptations.

Therefore Satan aims to destroy Israel, as he has done throughout their history (through such men as Haman, Herod, Hitler and others). In the end he will move all nations to rise against Israel and fight against her.

Here the temptation is for some - even some Jews - to deny that modern Israel has [i]any[/i] special place any more in God's plan for the nations. The idea that [i]God[/i] was fulfilling His Word in 1948 is rejected by those who hold this view. Even though Scripture shows that He often uses men and political situations (as Satan does also) to bring about His will among nations.

This is also a form of anti-semitism, or perhaps more correctly anti-Zionism.

Of course some Jewish people use their fancied supreiority to push a political agenda, (even though the Lord said it is [i]not[/i] because of their righteousness but because of His great Name that He still keeps, and will keep, His Word concerning them), but this doesn't make any difference to the broader picture.

Blessings

Jeannette

 2007/5/16 20:03









 Re:

Jeannette: Thank you for your recommendation to read the article you posted. I haven't read it yet, but would like to ask you, do you believe in the 1000 Year Millennial Kingdom Reign when Jesus will fulfill the promises to Earthly Israel and take the Throne of David? Do you believe the Church has a special calling out to reign and rule with Christ during that time? I do know Isaiah 14 has not been fulfilled, as the world or earth does not or has never (Yet anyway)had peace ( the whole world or earth is at rest)..yet. Satan, who set's his throne above the stars (I believe this is referring to anti-christ against Israel) and a great statement from Jesus in Revelations ...(the Root and Offspring of David, Bright and Morning Star)(Stars have always been associated with Israel, Judges 5, and Joseph's dream, etc,) would be something only Jewish people would pick up on. We are, as the Body of Christ considered Abraham's seed, Christ, but the Root and offspring of David is referring to KING.
Hope I haven't confused you too much.

Looking forward to your answer.
In Christ
Katy-did..(nick name)!
:-)

 2007/5/31 12:53









 Re:

Quote:

Katy-did wrote:
Jeannette: Thank you for your recommendation to read the article you posted. I haven't read it yet, but would like to ask you, do you believe in the 1000 Year Millennial Kingdom Reign when Jesus will fulfill the promises to Earthly Israel and take the Throne of David? Do you believe the Church has a special calling out to reign and rule with Christ during that time? I do know Isaiah 14 has not been fulfilled, as the world or earth does not or has never (Yet anyway)had peace ( the whole world or earth is at rest)..yet. Satan, who set's his throne above the stars (I believe this is referring to anti-christ against Israel) and a great statement from Jesus in Revelations ...(the Root and Offspring of David, Bright and Morning Star)(Stars have always been associated with Israel, Judges 5, and Joseph's dream, etc,) would be something only Jewish people would pick up on. We are, as the Body of Christ considered Abraham's seed, Christ, but the Root and offspring of David is referring to KING.
Hope I haven't confused you too much.

Looking forward to your answer.
In Christ
Katy-did..(nick name)!
:-)

Hi Katy. I've ony just noticed this! Can you pm me (private message) about it, so I don't miss it again?

If possible could you put the questions one at a time, rather than all together in a jumble (Or its seems like a jumble at the moment! Its late at night here, and I can confuse myself very well indeed without any outside help - even in the daytime!)

Although the simple answer to most of your questions is probably "I don't know"! Bible interpretation of "Last Days issues such as the Millennium for example, is very difficult because so much of the books that deal with it (Daniel and Revelation for example) is symbolic, or the time scale of events isn't necessarily in chronological order.

The point is, [i]are we ready[/i] for Jesus' return? rather than "how what when and where". Although I think we should have some idea of that too, so we can recognise what's going to happen when it does.

Thanks

Blessings

Jeannette :-D
PS it wasn't an article but the thread on "Jews against Zionism" which quickly became yet another discussion on the place of Israel in God's purposes.

 2007/6/1 17:49





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