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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776

 Re: better?

The Tension Over What’s Better

This morning I bumped into an interesting comment that Jesus made. First he says:

“ "No one tears a patch from a new garment and sews it on an old one. If he does, he will have torn the new garment, and the patch from the new will not match the old. And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the new wine will burst the skins, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, new wine must be poured into new wineskins.” Luke 5: 36 - 38

Jesus' next statement caught my attention (added only in Luke):

“And no one after drinking old wine wants the new, for he says, 'The old is better.' " :39

What is the old wine, and in what ways does it seem better?

Compare that with the better “wine” as describe in Hebrews:

we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. Hebrews 6:9
…a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God. Hebrews 7:19

… Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant. Hebrews 7:22

But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises. Hebrews 8:6

It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. Hebrews 9:23

You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions. Hebrews 10:34

Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. Hebrews 11:35

God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect. Hebrews 11:40 Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. Hebrews 12:24

In view of all these "better" promises, why would the old wine still seem better?



 2007/3/9 8:22Profile

Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK


In view of all these "better" promises, why would the old wine still seem better?

He may 'say' that it is better but he may just be expressing his comfortable prejudices. The new is always unpredictable... and we humans love to think we can control things.

Ron Bailey

 2007/3/9 8:57Profile

Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


hi diane, i never really looked at that scripture.but it brings to mind Jesus' first miricle of turning water into this instance the new was definately better than the old. sometimes i think we are one dimensional in our approach to scripture. many truths are multifaceted.....on the replacement debate i wonder if this picture fits.....the ship that the jews were riding on has capsized but the hull is sticking out of the water,with everybody huddled in wet blankets. the new "ship" is close by with christians and jews on it and they motion to the capsized crowd to come aboard.they either wont or cant for several reasons.1-we're not doing agood enough job,2- we're not operating under the annointing,3-they are blinded,4-we got impatient and shot at them with our flare-guns,5-tons of weird reasons....and so on...if i need to be rebuked so be it but at this stage of this debate this is how i see it

 2007/3/9 9:07Profile


Philologos posted:

The church of Jesus Christ is now 'the people of God'

Stever’s response:

I agree with your statement above,at the present moment in history. However if you are saying that God is finished with the Jews as a race, as a specific people, and as a specific Nation, then I have to disagree with you. God has caused blindness to come upon the Jews, but He is surely not through with them by any means.

Were the people that believed God and in His promise of the Messiah to come (“the seed of the woman”) that lived before the cross saved by their faith and belief in God?

The answer is yes.

Hebrews 9:15 in the KJV states:
15.And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 9:15 in the New living Bible gives us a better understanding:

15. That is why he is the one who mediates the new covenant between God and people, so that all who are invited can receive the eternal inheritance God has promised them. For Christ died to set them free from the penalty of the sins they had committed under that first covenant.

Hebrews Chapter 12 tells us about the cloud of witnesses that watch us in the race. The names of some of the witnesses are listed in Chapter 11 and are all old Testament Saints, who believed God, and who had faith in God’s promise of the seed of the woman (Prophesized in Genesis 3:15). This faith, this saving faith is what saved them all. Some of the names listed are: Abel; Noah; Abraham; Sarah; Rahab, Gedeon, Barak, Samson, Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: etc. etc. etc.

When Christ ascended to Heaven, He took captivity captive with Him. He took all of the souls, that had died before the cross and had believed God, and had faith in God’s promise of the “Seed of the Woman”, who were residing in Abraham’s bosom to heaven with Him.

Psalms 68:18 gives us the Prophecy in the Old Testament of this event:
18. Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the Lord God might dwell among them.

Ephesians 4:8-10 records the fulfillment of the above prophecy in the New Testament:
8. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10. He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

We are told in the New Testament, after the Gospels, and after Christ’s ascension, that “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord”. This is revelation knowledge, provided to us by Paul (2 Cor 5:8).Now, after the Cross, when any believer dies, he/she goes directly to heaven, to be with the Lord. Before Christ’s final payment for sin, this was not possible, and hence the reference to Abrahams bosom (also known as Paradise) by Christ when He told the parable of the rich man and the poor man (Lazarus) in Luke 16:20-31).

Christ promised the thief on the cross who believed on Him---"today you will be with me in Paradise" (Abraham’s bosom).

Job, one of the oldest books in the Bible, gives us understanding of God’s promise to believers before the Cross—“ 25. For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26. And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: 27. Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me

When Christ came the first time He only read part of Isaiah 61, and then closed the Book. Out of the entire Chapter He read merely the first 1 ½ verses

" 1. The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2. To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord"

He left the following out, that refers to His Second Coming (Coming again, as found throughout the New Testament) and His 1,000 year reign on the earth:

, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

3. To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.
4. And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
5. And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6. But ye shall be named the Priests of the Lord: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.
7. For your shame ye shall have double (Double means forgiveness); and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them. 8. For I the Lord love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them. 9. And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the Lord hath blessed. 10. I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels. 11. For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord God will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.

[b][color=0000FF]I find this to be interesting Scripture that to me describes Christ's death and resurrection, and His return to the earth, to be spent with the Jews, for their promised 1000 year reign with Messiah:[/color][/b]

Hosea 5:14-15 & 6:1-2
5:14. For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.
5:15. I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

6:1. Come, and let us return unto the Lord: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
6:2.[i][b][color=0000FF] After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

One day is to the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day- this refers to prophetic time- Christ is away for two thousand years, and will return to the earth for 1,000 more—the “Millennial Kingdom” that has been promised to the Jews. After that we know from Scripture that He creates a New Heaven and a New Earth for all those that believe on Him-the Jews, the true vine, and the grafted on branch- the Gentile Church.[/color][/b][/i]

God bless,

Stever :-D

P.S It also says in Scripture that the "Saints" come with Christ at the second coming. All of the "Saints", that have believed God from the beginning, will come with Him in their new, glorified bodies (like Christ"s) to rule and reign with Him. The Jews that have come to belief in their Messiah during the Tribulation, and others that are not Jews, but have come to belief in Him as well, will enter into the thousand year reign in their bodies of flesh and blood. Christ will rule and reign with a "rod of iron" (Palms 2 & Revelation 2).

 2007/3/10 2:11

 Re: gloves off Ron

you wrote:

Your statement that we have 'institutional anti-semitism' is completely inaccurate

Ron, either you are in denial, or you are blind to history, or you just crept out of the British-Israelism camp and decided that the replacement theology/"transpositional theology was more acceptable theo-dwelling to creep into, in either case you are blind to the realities of the last 1600 years of history regrading the institutional anti-semitism that has been spearheaded and fostered by the lower case c "church", whether it be rome or any of the other apostate hell bound chucks of the Body of Christ

I talked at length with few other pastors i know and respect in regards to replacement theology and there take was twofold, its in error and it fosters a sense of superiority that some NEED to feel, and this is underlined by your last statement:

The church of Jesus Christ is now 'the people of God'.

Sit in your library and entertain this delusion, I'm sure its a comfortable, self-satisfying and self righteous place to perch, May God have mercy on you.

 2007/3/10 4:34

Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776

 Re: No church can claim the Covenant promises

the church of Jesus Christ is now 'the people of God'.

The word ‘church” here should be Church (capital C), and I assume that is what Ron meant.

I feel that many misunderstandings are rooted in a false understanding of the New Covenant. And that is the root of error, including anti-Semitism. I see this faulty thinking expressed in the rite of infant baptism. It is regarded as a covenant symbol (taken from the OT covenent promise). Mind you, it is easy to challenge that position using the book of Hebrews. After all, God’s covenant people, Israel, did not “enter his rest” (New Covenant) because of unbelief. Of course, that would not be applicable to Joshua, Caleb, and maybe a few others.

This same reality exists in all groups (denominations) under the umbrella of Christianity – be it Baptist, Pentecostal, or whatever. There is always a remnant of Covenent people among them. Typically most of the non-converted members view themselves as saved, but really are living vicariously on THE faith of true believers. (I've been there myself.)

I think that Dr. Brown has a valid point when he said (taken from his site):
If God could forsake Israel, in spite of His unconditional, everlasting promises, then He could forsake the Church! If God could replace Israel, in spite of His unconditional, everlasting promises, then He could replace the Church! So, if you hold to a theology that says, “God has forsaken physical Israel,” or “The Church has replaced Israel,” you had better be extremely careful.

Here, the word Church should be written as: “church” (small c) In fact, I’d say that the church (as we use the word) has NEVER been the recipient of the Covenant promises. The Covenant promises do not apply to Christendom. They only belong to those who have died – that is to the old man and are living the New Life in Christ. Those are scattered here and there.

The true Church, as far as I have come to believe has NEVER been an organized entity in itself. Churches don’t get saved, people do. In fact, when people organize, they typically become a church – containing a mixture of wheat and tares.

No church has a right to claim something on behalf of ALL its members and descendents – creeds, baptism (infant or adult), notwithstanding.

I’m not convinced that Dr. Brown fully understands the difference between New Covenant people and the church. In fact when he said, “even true born again and spirit filled Christians” are growing more anti-Semitic, I believe he is referring to those who CLAIM to be born-again/spirit filled – but are not.

“Do not take the name of the Lord, your God in vain.”

What a practical commandment! It means don’t claim something about yourself that is not true. Look at the trouble that has been caused because of the violation of this command – be it by Israelite, Jew, or by Gentile! Scripture is replete - from cover to cover - with this command spoken in all kinds of ways through all kinds of warnings. The need for that is most relevent today. After all, people groups (referring to themselves as the church) have always had a tendency to slip - just like ancient Israel did.

The epistle to the Hebrews is a warning to the church:

“We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.” (the New Covenant promises) Heb. 6:12

"Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion, during the time of testing in the desert." Heb. 3:3

This verse surely applies equally to the church as it did to the Jews in Paul's day. The church, like ancient Isreal, has tasted many wonderful blessings of the Spirit over the centuries. But that doesn't mean its members are all saved or that they understand the New Covenant promises. As Jesus said, “And no one after drinking old wine wants the new, for he says, 'The old is better.' " Lk. 5:39

Diane Eaton


 2007/3/10 9:19Profile

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA


Sit in your library and entertain this delusion, I'm sure its a comfortable, self-satisfying and self righteous place to perch, May God have mercy on you.

"Self righteous"

Denial ...

It is enough Neil, more than enough. You have proven that you can no longer give place to contrary opinion without resorting to accusations and asumptions. You have no other considerations than your own as it pertains to others here, have no apparent desire to reconcille with others and have been causing a great deal of strife by targeting those you disagree with.

You are accountable for your words and owe a debt to this community for the same similar bitterness and accusation to another brother here.

We have been more than patient with you. May the Lord open your eyes and root out the bitterness in your heart.

Mike Balog

 2007/3/10 11:15Profile

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA



There is some unfinished buisness that you need to address;

[url=]Melchizedek - who was he?[/url]

Towards the bottom of the page. You are being held accountable for your words there and have yet to rectify the situation. It was asked of you to address it in more than one place, this is your last opportunity, do not ignore it.

Mike Balog

 2007/3/10 12:03Profile


Bartle said:

talked at length with few other pastors i know and respect in regards to replacement theology and there take was twofold, its in error

Big Deal!! I can find Pastors to agree with me too, does that make it right? The Word of God is the final authority, NOT what I read in the headlines or on CNN.

When Jerusalem fell in 70AD the Temple was destroyed, the Jewish nation scattered into heathen nations a sword was drawn out after them, ever since that time the Jew have gone thru much trouble and anguish, why? Because they rejected their Messiah in the last days. God gave them 40 years to make up their minds to receive Christ, but they continued on offering abominations of sacrifices to God. And thus christ words came to pass:

Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.


Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

There is no such a thing as Replacement Theology, if anything, the Jews replaced God for gods, and idols, "Yea, they have chosen their own ways".

I am NOT anti semitic, I am just putting the TIME of what you believe to be future bible prophecy in their prespective place, in the past.

 2007/3/10 12:24

Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


there is no such a thing as Replacement Theology, if anything, the Jews replaced God for gods, and idols, "Yea, they have chosen their own ways".

My personal feeling is that this is a view through natural eyes, and not through the eyes of faith. It seems like a pronouncement of a final verdict: guilty. It does nothing to break down the walls we are encountering here. Aren’t we to be ministers of reconciliation? Why can’t we examine what God DID – even those years following Pentecost, prior to 70 AD? Consider all those Jews who were added to the Kingdom! And look what they inherited as a result! Maybe we should make a list – there’s plenty to draw from in the epistles.

Neil will correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems like underneath all the doctrinal debate there is another dimension: an honest grief that is the result of hearing over and over again, either in words or in attitude “Tough cookies for you! Your ancestors blew it, and now, you are second rate (and I’m first rate).”

If we haven't been there, how can we know how we would respond?

'Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience." Col. 3:12

What is the "therefore" referring back to?



 2007/3/10 12:46Profile

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