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roadsign
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 Re: new citizenship


Quote:
We shall discover that that Covenant was 'land based' and formed a tenancy agreement between Jehovah and his people.


A key point! (also expounded in the "Killing in war is not a sin" thread)

Today I discovered something in Scripture that I can’t believe I missed for so many years. Paul speaks in Philippians about forgetting the past, and I had never connected that reference with the verses that preceded them - those about his former Old Covenant blessings:

“ …… I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.” Phil. 3:12 – 14 NKJV

Paul wanted to move ahead – towards the prize of the UPWARD CALL (or heavenward in the NIV) And he wanted to let go of the things that would hold him back to his past (the earthly) To him it was worth losing his entire heritage for the sake of Christ. That would have included his confidence in the flesh, identity as an Israelite, meticulous observance of the law, legalistic righteousness. Clearly, his Hebrew connections were not important to him – in comparison to Christ.

Note what Paul adds: “Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.”
This is not inferior thinking, as we sometimes are led to believe. It is mature thinking!

I wonder if one of the reasons that the scribes and Pharisees, and other Jews were reluctant to accept Christ, was because they just could not let go of the things that defined them as a people. It was just too high a price to pay. It was death.

I remember the challenge in my own family – when we, the descendents of Dutch immigrants began marrying English people (as they were called). It meant that the Dutch heritage was in danger of disappearing forever. But alas, the Dutch are hardy people and those among the relatives who have even a sprinkling of Dutch in them, still refer to themselves as Dutch. There seems to be something really neat about having that “special” identity – and not just being a Canadian “mutt”.

Paul goes on to say, “But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ…
What does this say about land?

Quote:
We should also remind ourselves that the Old Covenant lasted from Exodus 20 to its fulfillment in Christ at Calvary. The time before that was pre-Old Covenant and the time after that is New Covenant.


I’m confused about this. Really, one is not in the New Covenant UNTIL they themselves, personally are in Christ. I am concerned about preachers and teachers who proclaim to their entire congregations an all-inclusive dispensation of grace, when in actual fact, only FEW are living in grace. The rest are still in bondage to law (flesh) – whether they are of Jewish descent or not. (Rom. 7) Well, that's the way I see it anyway....

Diane


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Diane

 2007/3/7 23:25Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

I think we need to ask the question what happened at Sinai and why was it so? The Sinai Covenant was presented to the gathered refugees from Egypt with the following words:“Now therefore, [b]if[/b] you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, [b]then[/b] you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.”” (Ex 19:5-6 NKJV)There is a key observation we should make here. This was to be a conditional covenant as expressed in the words “if… then”. In computer language terms this is a classical ‘if…then’ statement. The event will only take place if the conditions are fulfilled. This means that if the gathered people had not fulfilled the conditions the event would not have taken place ie the Sinaitic Covenant would not have been activated. Where would that have left the people at the foot of the mountain? Let me spell that out.

it would have left a people who were…NOT a special treasure to Me above all people...and a people who were…NOT a kingdom of priests and

NOT a holy nation.’
We really need to think about this and answer carefully because whatever the Sinaitic Covenant did to this people was only ever intended to be temporary. This, as I have said previously, is plainly stated in Galatians;“What purpose then does the law serve? It was [b]added[/b] because of transgressions, [b]till[/b] the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.” (Gal 3:19 NKJV)The Sinaitic Covenant then was “added”. Added to what? It was added to the promise and was designed to be in force “till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made”. The plain reading of this shows that there was a time when the Sinaitic Covenant did not exist, then a period when it would exist, and then another period when it would no longer exist. The time period of the Sinaitic Covenant was from c1500 (some would say a little later) until it was terminated at Calvary. During the time of its authority it promised blessing and threatened curses on those who were joined to that Covenant. It is no longer an option; it is now 2000 years past its sell-by date. It has had no jurisdiction for 2000 years.

It looked forward to the time when the Seed should come and the Seed having come it has fulfilled its purpose and is now null and void. “But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are [b]no longer[/b] under a tutor.” (Gal 3:23-25 NKJV)Please note the ‘no longer’ in verse 25.

So, if the Sinaitic Covenant is 'no longer' current we must strike it from the statue books and see where things stand without it. There were Covenants before Sinai and after Sinai, but when the scripture speaks of the Old Covenant it is referring to Sinai. In fact, continuing our computer illustration, there were nested covenants; the Davidic covenant was a covenant which arose from within the Old Covenant period and in strictly physical terms petered out with the Babylonian exile of 587 BC.

If we remove the Sinaitic Covenant from the statute book we shall need to see what was in existence prior to it; that to which Sinai was “added”. What would have been the condition and expectation of the people at the foot of the mountain if the Sinai Covenant had never been activated. Because this may be the condition of the people now that the Sinai Covenant has been terminated.


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Ron Bailey

 2007/3/8 13:57Profile
PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
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 Re:

Quote:
What would have been the condition and expectation of the people at the foot of the mountain if the Sinai Covenant had never been activated. Because this may be the condition of the people now that the Sinai Covenant has been terminated.



Hmm.. That is something to think about. I guess there are two routes of thinking dealing with the Sinai covenant in my mind. One being it's relation to Isreal and the other being in relation to sin. I've put much more thought into it's relation to sin than I have to Isreal. The above is almost a puzzling statement to me, so I am going to have to put more thought into it.

I've been peppered with the 'normal' view of Isreal and end times events so it's going to take me some time to understand the "replacement" side of this arguement. Hopefully I can grasp both sides and be able to judge between the two.

How is the below verse dealt with in the "replacement" view of scriptures? I know this is one that is used from the "other" viewpoint.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2007/3/8 14:58Profile









 Re: "that would be me"

indeed.

Quote:
"Acknowledge and take to heart this day, that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other. Keep His decrees and commandments which I am giving you today, so that it may go well with you and your children after you and that you may live long in the land that the LORD your God gives you for all time."



Deuteronomy 4:39-40 (yes..NIV)

[b]......"for all time".[/b]


Quote:
"For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be His people, His treasured possession."



Deuteronomy 7:6 (yes again, NIV)

then we come to Chapter 13 of Deuteronomy or dare I call this book "elleh haddebarrim", which means in Hebrew "These are the words". and Chapter 13 spells out what must happen to the false prophet, which is how the Pharisees viewed Jesus and crucified Him [b]for your sake.[/b]

But then Gamaliel (in Acts)saw thru the mist, saw the Sovereign Nature of God and told the Sanhedrin and Pharisees, and all others who wanted to persecute the embryonic early Church, that if these people are phonies and false, they will die out on their own, but if this is of God, and you fight against it, you will be futilely fighting against God. Thats where the Roman persecution began, and when satan saw that wasnt working, the enemy went to work on Constantine, and that Roman emperor decreed that "christianity" will now be the official imperial religion and the world was plunged into darkness.

God prophesied the Diaspora in Deuteronomy 28:63-68. I', tired, I need to nap before work, so I trust anyone can reference their Bible, but then in Deuteronomy 30:4-6, God said:

Quote:
"Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the LORD your God will gather you and bring you back. He will bring you back to the land that belonged to your fathers and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers. The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love Him with all your heart and with all your soul , and live".



Why is it so difficult to grasp the positioning of "ingrafted vine"? You who draw nourishment from the Vine?

How was it that a rag tag band of lightly armed Jews were able to not only roll back the British Empire but also horde upon horde of Arabs bent on their destruction? and this very day, why do you think it is that the foreign nation with the most NASDAQ listed companies is Israel?

there are no accidents in the Economy of God, is it no accident that at its height the British Empire lost millions of its sons in the senseless trench warfare of WW1, and hence denuded the imperial aspirations of the Empire?
accident?, miscalculation? or God's will?

who knows what will happen to America in the Persian Gulf, may God have mercy.

Is it an accident that from every war modern day Israel has fought since 1948, the "hornet" proceeded the Israeli Defense Forces and crushed numerically superior Arab armies?

Whether it be called "replacement" or "transpositional" theology, it's wrong, there's an arrogance, a haughtiness built in to such thinking, Paul warned Gentile believers about this theo-arrogance, and I wont quote it now, because I grow tired....so, believe what you must.

we all see thru a glass darkly, neil

 2007/3/8 17:36
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

“‘And thou hast known to-day, and hast turned [it] back unto thy heart, that Jehovah He [is] God, in the heavens above, and on the earth beneath — there is none else; and thou hast kept His statutes and His commands which I am commanding thee to-day, so that it is well to thee, and to thy sons after thee, and so that thou prolongest days on the ground which Jehovah thy God is giving to thee — all the days.’”
(Deut 4:39-40 YNG)

If this really did mean 'for all time' must we charge God with unfaithfulness for the periods of time when the initial recipients of the promise were banished from the land?

““For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth.” (Deut 7:6 NKJV)

But this was part of a Covenant which has now been 'replaced'. The Sinaitic Covenant was temporary... until the Seed should come.

Quote:
"Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the LORD your God will gather you and bring you back. He will bring you back to the land that belonged to your fathers and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers. The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love Him with all your heart and with all your soul , and live".


But again this was given during the administration of a Covenant which has now ceased to operate. If I find some laws that George III passed on the American Colonies and then try to observe them in the present day US, I will be sharply reminded that 'things have changed'.

Quote:
Whether it be called "replacement" or "transpositional" theology, it's wrong, there's an arrogance, a haughtiness built in to such thinking, Paul warned Gentile believers about this theo-arrogance, and I wont quote it now, because I grow tired....so, believe what you must.


There is no point in calling me 'arrogant' just because I don't agree with your interpretation.

The Sinai Covenant is no more.“For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. (For they could not endure what was commanded: “And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned or shot with an arrow.” And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.”)
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.” (Heb 12:18-24 NKJV)We no longer come to that mountain! Not Jews and not Gentiles. “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.” (Gal 6:15 NKJV)


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/3/8 18:52Profile









 forgive me

I didnt mean to seem to be calling YOU arrogant.....no no no, not my meaning, but the way I see it, there is an inherent implication of superiority, of "trans....positioning" one's self in the Kingdom of Heaven in the theory of replacement theology, or transpositional theology.

what about this: if you worship a god, that can make irevocable Covenants, revocable, what makes you so sure, that He won't revoke the New Covenant and give it to the muslims?

But forgive me if it seemed as if the dialogue was personal, believe what you want, I just think you're wrong, in fact I know you're wrong, we do not worship a fork tongued god, and you as an ingrafted vine find nourishment in the same life giving Sap, and when the Church REALLY becomes what It was called to be, the Jewish people will be made envious of so great a salvation. But with 400 different denominations, many many apostate cults, the cult of mary at rome and a most unsavory history regarding the Jewish people, the lower case c "church will continue with its impotent witness to the Jewish people's, UNTIL the full number of Gentiles is brought in.

Besides, I just got done writing my ex-RM commando buddy, who THANK GOD, just got back safely from sheperding news crews around Bagdhad, and I want to bring Giuliano for holiday in the UK, the City, many he can witness the Royal Marines in training, a jaunt to Cardiff, a jaunt to the Hebrides, and then cap it off with a stay at my friends Inn in the Scottish Highlands.....why would I want to insult you?, I want to get inside your library so I can "borrow" some books. (laughing) So hide your missionary biographies when I come a calling. (teasing)

neil

 2007/3/8 19:47
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: forgive me

Quote:
I didnt mean to seem to be calling YOU arrogant.....no no no, not my meaning, but the way I see it, there is an inherent implication of superiority, of "trans....positioning" one's self in the Kingdom of Heaven in the theory of replacement theology, or transpositional theology.


Personally I feel no sense of superiority to anyone.. Jew, Muslim, Wordling.

Your "I know you are wrong" just sets your witness against mine. There are a few logical possibilities here. You are wrong, I am wrong or we are both wrong. What is not possible is that we can say such opposite things and both be right. At least one of us is wrong here.

Some of your 'facts' are quite clearly wrong. Your statement that we have 'institutional anti-semitism' is completely inaccurate and I can't imagine where you have got the idea from other than the reaction that the Israeli nation state is right in all it has done and therefore al others must be wrong.

Quote:
what about this: if you worship a god, that can make irevocable Covenants, revocable, what makes you so sure, that He won't revoke the New Covenant and give it to the muslims?


The Old Covenant was made between God and men, the New Covnenant is between the Father and the Son. There will/can be no failure of the New Covenant.

“Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for [b]ye are not my people[/b], and I will not be your God. Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.” (Hos 1:9-10 KJVS)Somewhere in the middle of that statement, for an indefinite period of time, the northern tribes of 'Israel' were 'no longer' the people of God. God had revoked the contract as a result of their failure to keep the conditions.

The prophecy of verse 10 has been fulfilled..“But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but [b]are now the people of God[/b]: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.” (1Pet 2:9-10 KJVS) The church of Jesus Christ is now 'the people of God'.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/3/9 1:59Profile









 Re:

To Philologos:

As usual, we disagree..........

Replacement Theology teaches that the Church is the replacement for Israel, and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian Church, not in Israel.

So, the prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are "spiritualized" or “allegorized” into promises of God's blessing for the Church. [b][color=CC0000]Major problems exist with this view, such as the continuing existence of the Jewish people throughout the centuries, and especially with the revival of the modern state of Israel. If Israel has been condemned by God, and there is no future for the Jewish nation, how do we explain the supernatural survival of the Jewish people as a distinct people group (unheard of in History of any dispersed people group)over the past 2000 years despite the many attempts to destroy them? How do we explain why and how Israel reappeared as a nation in the 20th century after not existing for 1900 years?[/color][/b]

The view that Israel and the Church are different is clearly taught in the New Testament. In this view, the Church is completely different and distinct from Israel, and the two are never to be confused or used interchangeably. We are taught from Scripture that the Church is an entirely new creation, that came into being on the Day of Pentecost, and will continue until it is translated to Heaven at the Rapture (Ephesians 1:9-11; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17). The Church has no relationship to the curses and blessings for Israel. The covenants, promises, and warnings are valid only for Israel. [b][color=CC0000]Israel has been set aside in God's program during these past 2,000 years of dispersion.[/color][/b]

After the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18), God will restore Israel to the primary focus of His plan. The first event at this time is the Great Tribulation (Revelation chapters 6-19). The world will be judged for rejecting Christ, while Israel is prepared through the trials of the Great Tribulation for the Second Coming of the Messiah. Now, when Christ does return to the earth, at the end of the Tribulation, Israel will be ready to receive Him. The remnant of Israel which survives the Tribulation will be saved and the Lord will establish His kingdom on this earth with the capital as Jerusalem. With Christ reigning as King, Israel will be the leading nation, and representatives from all nations will come to Jerusalem to honor and worship the King - Jesus Christ. The Church will return with Christ and will reign with Him for a literal thousand years (Revelation 20:1-5).

[b][color=CC0000]Both the Old Testament and the New Testament support a Premillennial / Dispensational understanding of God's plan for Israel. Even so, the strongest support for Premillennialism is found in the clear teaching of Revelation 20:1-7, where it says, six times, that Christ's kingdom will last 1,000 years. After the Tribulation the Lord will return and establish His kingdom with the nation of Israel, Christ will reign over the whole earth with Jerusalem as His capital, and Israel will be the leader of the nations. The Church will reign with Him for a literal thousand years. The church has not replaced Israel in God's plan. While God may be focusing His attention primarily on the church in this dispensation of grace, God has not forgotten Israel, and will one day restore Israel to His intended role for the nation He has chosen (Romans chapter 11).[/color][/b]

God bless,

Stever

P.S. I will answer your comments about the covenants made to Abraham by God in other posts.

Quote:

philologos wrote:
Quote:
I didnt mean to seem to be calling YOU arrogant.....no no no, not my meaning, but the way I see it, there is an inherent implication of superiority, of "trans....positioning" one's self in the Kingdom of Heaven in the theory of replacement theology, or transpositional theology.


Personally I feel no sense of superiority to anyone.. Jew, Muslim, Wordling.

Your "I know you are wrong" just sets your witness against mine. .....................

 2007/3/9 3:10
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Stever on 2007/3/9 8:10:09
To Philologos:

As usual, we disagree..........


“For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you.” (1Cor 11:19 NKJV)


Quote:
Stever on 2007/3/9 8:10:09
Replacement Theology teaches that the Church is the replacement for Israel, and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian Church, not in Israel.


This is the 'strawman' definition. Just set up to be knocked down.


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Ron Bailey

 2007/3/9 4:40Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

BTW some might like to listen to T Austin Sparks on a related topic.
[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=35]The New Israel.[/url]


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Ron Bailey

 2007/3/9 8:17Profile





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