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 Re:

And just looking up at the Header of the SermonIndex.net site I realized the quote is quite aplicable to this thread:

It ill becomes the servant to seek to be rich, and great, and honoured, in that world where his Lord was poor, and mean, and despised.
-George Muller

Through the whole ministry Jesus gave much to the poor and one of the early church's main tenets was to give to the poor. As Jesus said to his disciples: you will always have the poor but you will not always have me. So the Church has an on-going ministry to the poor.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/3/21 19:43Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

There truly is something sinister about it all.
It was with reluctance to go through all this again, there is something that just wells up inside,....[i]aarrrggghhh![/i] Like Derek said, it is an annoyance reading back over those 'old teachings' that I once fully embraced. If it was all blatantly false it would be easy to just dismiss it out of hand.

Ron said

Quote:
Satan is no fool, if he cannot sow unbelief in mens hearts concerning the truth then he will go the other way and push men to take the truth to extremes, just add a little extra to the truth and it becomes a lie. This is why I pray for discernment daily.



Sinister, no doubt.

Quote:
I learned a humiliating yet valuable lesson in discernment, or my lack thereof, when I was a new believer. I read the book "The God Chasers" by Tommy Tenney. I was excited about it, it sounded like good truth and had me stirred up. But thank God someone at my church had the discernment to point out to me that much of it was truth taken to extremes, particularly the gifts of the Spirit were being exalted over the Giver of the gifts. When I went back over the book and read where Tenney called the Bible "dusty old love letters" I was shocked at how little discernment I really had.



And Praise God that you were able to take that advice and then re-consider it. It's one of the difficulties, that it's usually pretty natural to react and defend when somebody challenges you. I know I did when I first started hearing opposing voices "How dare they!"....and then to realize that I had zero discernment, it was humbling. But even now I still hesitate to bring this forth a bit, still have a lot to learn. You see it's wrong, you know it's wrong and then...Rat's! Now I have to try and explain it ...

You don't derive any pleasure out of it, that's for sure, it's just griveous....


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Mike Balog

 2004/3/21 20:05Profile
Agent001
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Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

Todd,

I think [b]crsschk[/b] has got what you were looking for: a suggested list of proponents of "prosperity teaching", and the book by Kenneth Copeland himself, "The Laws of Prosperity," which I believe will be especially helpful in making up your mind. You are probably more interested in reading the proponent's own works to make up your mind than to listen to their opponents' representations of their position.

[url=http://www.kcm.org/studycenter/finances/pdf/lawsofprosperity.pdf]The Laws of Propsperity by Kenneth Copeland[/url]

I did not read through the whole book, but I did briefly skim through it. Invariably, it seems Copeland began with some biblical truth and then pushed it too far. I think he had some genuine experience before God, but I do think his understanding of his own experience and his interpretation of the Word are problematic. If you like, we can discuss about that.

Honestly, I suggest that it's more spiritually helpful to read Hudson Taylor and George Mueller. They also learned to pray by faith for God's provision of their daily needs. Did they prosper? No, not in the financial sense. But God supplied just enough for their "[i]daily[/i] bread".


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Sam

 2004/3/22 12:19Profile
Delboy
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Joined: 2004/2/8
Posts: 199
Worthing UK

 Re:

dear Agent001,hey thanks for your contributions during this thread ;-)


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derek Eyre

 2004/3/22 14:26Profile
todd
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Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
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 Re:

Wow, another stack of materials! Seriously, if you want a good laugh, look at all that's been written since my last post and then read my illustrations from my last post.

First off, again, let me thank you for your efforts. However, let me emphasize the word [b]most[/b] when I say "most relevant." I know this might seem like I am trying to have my cake and eat it too, but I really don't see any other way of dealing with a topic of this magnitude and complexity fairly. Perhaps it is time to start separate threads in specific areas. For example, we could start one for Copeland's book. I think that could be very helpful and efficient, especially since it's an online book. Then maybe another thread for philologos' message, other separate ones for each of Wilkersons' messages, the Jim Bakker article, that woman's testimony, etc., etc, etc. I think that might be reasonable, but not all at once. Maybe have 1 or possibly 2 going at the same time.

Crsschk, I read much of your commentary on Copelands book and would be interested in discussing each area separately. So, maybe pick out what seems [b]most[/b] relevant to you (like maybe 1-3 points) and make that the start of the new thread. That would be ideal for me.

Quote:
"You see it's wrong, you know it's wrong and then...Rat's! Now I have to try and explain it ...
You don't derive any pleasure out of it, that's for sure, it's just griveous...."

Thanks again for your time and making this effort for me.

Let me leave this thread with a few reflections after skimming "through the stack."

As far as Muller goes, I understand that he did experience great prosperity, but he voluntarily chose to give most of it away. But this was a choice, he chose to give what he received as a blessing. There are those who are in poverty, not by choice, but because of other reasons. I think that God wants us in the place where we can make choices concerning what to do with the abundance He blesses us with. This is a great difference, to be in humble circumstances voluntarily verses being stuck in poverty despite your longing to get out.

Also, have you ever seen the places where Spurgeon lived, such as Westwood (check out pp. 49-62, Vol. 4 of his unedited autobiography published by Pilgrim)? Or the kind of establishments he set up? And wasn't Spurgeon the same man who said that Muller was the one man he held in such high regard that he would trade lives with? I am willing to bet that Spurgeon had at least as good, if not a far better, understanding and respect for Muller's convictions and beleifs than most of us, and yet this extravagence... you think there might be more to all of this?

One hugley important factor that I think makes things much clearer is the "blessings and curses" factor. In fact, I think I am going to start a new thread on that topic tonight.

 2004/3/22 21:56Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Hey Todd,

These weren't [i]all[/i] for you :-)
The one from the email was just something I had on file that was relevant, long as it was.
This is a topic that obviously has had an effect on me personally. So you may have gotten more than you bargained for by bringing this up.
I have barely even gotten started, so take what you will from it, but remember there are others dropping in on all this.

Re: The Copeland Book:

Quote:
So, maybe pick out what seems most relevant to you (like maybe 1-3 points) and make that the start of the new thread. That would be ideal for me.



What's relevant to me is that it's [i]irrevervent[/i], the whole philosophy. As I alluded to before, it's difficult to break it out of it's construct. The whole premise of this 'theology' is a misconstruction of what scriptures really teach.
It seems that the idea is that by their way of reasoning you become gods.
This 'God' has 'formulas' and 'laws' that if you just know how to follow along you will become rich, prosperous, healthy, no problem. Your a mighty Christian, the devil can't touch you, and because you now have these supernatural powers, you can speak things into existence by the 'force of faith', just like God did. Still don't grasp what God needs faith for or in.

I don't see the benefit of dissecting this point by point. It is glaringly apparent to me. How would you go about it?
'This point isn't too bad, this is way off, this is nonsense, this is actually true but it's twisted.' How much arsenic do you need to kill someone?

I believe at one point in the book he said that the biggest problem in the world is financial poverty. I thought it was sin.

As far as I am concerned if there was ever a case of 'throwing the baby out with the bath water' this would be it.

Maybe the question needs to be turned around, what benefit do you see in this kind of teaching?
Is it really true and we have just misunderstood?
Is it scriptural?
Is this what the apostles would have us to understand?
Jesus? Is this what the Lord was teaching?
Why is it that all of a sudden these guy's have this new revelation of interpretation that has been lost to Orthodox Christianity all these years?
There is still the same unanswered questions, does this play in third world countries?
What about the not so obvious insinuation that if you are not receiving all these things they promise it's because of your lack of faith?
What about the little old Lady's being bilked out of there money? The new naive believers?

I may be the wrong guy for this...maybe somebody can come along and be more objective. But for myself the ramifications still reverberate to this day. This type of teaching just lends itself to the already materialistic mindset that is prevalent in our society, it just has Christian lingo attached to it.

If you want some more stark honesty I will show you were all this teaching has gotten me.
To the best of my ability I have ran my business on principles that are consistent with my understanding of scripture. Being fair, honest, paying my taxes* (you wouldn't believe the 'Christians' that have told me to just "take this 'under the table'") (*well, not quite. I actually owe the IRS big time and have had to resort to a payment plan. But that is my fault, I am a lousy business man. Still, Cesar will get paid, with interest)

Being that I was all caught up in this nonsense as I started my business, it did have an effect on how I went about things. I over extended my giving because of these concepts. Did I have faith? You bet! I have planted so many 'seeds' you would think I would have my own housing track by now, but all I wanted was just one house, Oh maybe I just gave up to soon? Isn't that convenient? You can dangle these things out in front of people and if they don't come to pass it's either your lack of faith or lack of patience.....built in escape clause's.

Has the Lord sustained me through all this folly?
Yes, despite myself, how merciful He is to His ignorant children. But it is a day to day dependence on His provisions and most of the time it just trickles in. I can barely keep my head above water. Yet if anything it has caused me to cling even tighter to Him. To trust Him.

This has been nowhere near 'blessings and abundance', but hard work, suffering and toil.

Because of these teachings and this whole philosophy, (and yes I believe it is a large part of the problem because it is so ingrained into their thinking), I still have loved ones that are on a conscious and subconscious level material minded, have no concept of 'delayed gratification', what good stewardship is, this whole idea that some 'miracle' is just going to plop out of the sky or Ed McMahon is going to come knocking on the door.

Am I going to cast all the blame at their feet for all this financial trouble that I have found myself in? No. It's still my own doing. I'll take the blame for being a fool who's money has departed from him. I have made some stupid mistakes all by myself unrelated to all this.
But the point I want to drive home is where all this leads to. Fortunately I began to listen to dissenting voices before to long, but it has been a long 3 to 4 years now of trying to extract this mindset from my loved ones, it is full of pain, anguish, tears, pleading, praying...Only God can open the eye's, I have given up trying to persuade, to be rational, to explain. Tried to be temperate, tolerant, understanding...learning what it means to be long suffering and I am not looking for sympathy here, this is far short of persecution, of shedding blood or being tortured for your faith. But the consequences are there.

Again, all this teaching isn't blatant, it's subtle, that's the 'beauty' of it.
It actually encourages bad stewardship and wishful thinking, all the while making it look like just the opposite.

Oh, I could go on and on and I have, but I will make no apologies other than for overcrowding this space, forgive me, but this will be the last of it.

There is nothing of any worth in this whole philosophy. Like so many other words they have destroyed, this one now has a permanent stain on it. Prosperity. How sad.

The world is steeped in sin, multitudes are going to hell, atrocities abound all over the world, persecution, suffering, a backslidden church, morals in the toilet...
Then to add injury to insult we have this heretical doctrine misleading the multitudes.

[i]Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.[/i] Rev 3:17-22


(Muller/Spurgeon and this topic? That's a lousy comparison, maybe someone will take you up on that one)

If you want to defend, dissect and discuss it it's really none of my business and maybe I should have never jumped in here in the first place. I can only give my testimony to the destruction that this false gospel is and I will bow out from here and leave with this warning from Carter Conlon:

Run for your life!

[i]1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.[/i]


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Mike Balog

 2004/3/23 11:39Profile
JCGarc55
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Joined: 2004/3/1
Posts: 103


 Re: They are all "prosperity pimps"

All of these ministers are wolves in sheeps clothing. They fit in perfectly to the description given in Ezekiel 34. 'They feed themselves and not the sheep'. I heard an awesome message from Donnie Swaggart recently. (By the way, Greg, have you ever heard him preach?) I have a tape he preached called "the Love of Money"(1 tim ch 6) and the quote "prosperity pimp" is from him. He called on all those ministers to repent and come back to the Cross. He preached in such a broken spirit too. But he also spoke as a Shepherd!

I will send to Greg if the swaggarts ministry gives permission.


I also wanted to add that I use to attend a church where they went for your pocketbook all the time.
At the close of each message (90% of the time) they'd ask the congregation to show their faith by sowing a seed in Faith, etc. It always ended there. Initially I didn't see it but as I closely examined parts of the bible that didn't mesh well with the teaching, God began to reveal to me the error of this prosperity gospel. The scripture that stood out the most was in 1 Timothy 6 where it says that 'these corrupt men supposed that godliness was an avenue for gain..' and then afterward it says "from such people withdraw thyself.." I thank the Lord for His Word and that I had a pastor at the time, that embarrassingly admitted that he saw the same thing going on in the church and David Wilkerson's wife, Gwen also wrote me and encouraged me. Later on I spoke with the Senior Pastor about this and was told my perception is wrong. I then left that church but it grieves me to see some of my friends and family still there.

(God bless those of you reading this). Sorry to jump in out of nowhere. My life has been touched (unfortunately) by both the prosperity gospel teaching and the seeker sensitive movement. But I know God can use that experience for His glory in that I will share with those I come in contact with, who are suffering from being in these types of churches. There are so many sheep these Last Days who are famished and can't find a church thats preaching the whole counsel of God(acts 20).

But God will win! amen!!


 2004/3/23 12:20Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Related thread:

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1592&forum=34] Katz; Hosea[/url]

The whole of it is worth reading, #6 in particular.


P.S. JCGarc55

Quote:
Sorry to jump in out of nowhere

No need to apologize, it's actually to be encouraged, that's what these discussions are all about, wrestling with issues, trying to help each other, sharing our experiences... Thanks for your comments.

P.P.S. Yes, I lied. I said I was done here. May never be truly done with this issue. Do want to add that my earlier comments I pray are directed at the issue, not at any particular individual here, if I have failed in that regard, forgive me.


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Mike Balog

 2004/3/24 10:02Profile
Agent001
Member



Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

Hi all,

To [b]crsschk[/b]: Testimonies are most powerful in evangelism and in Christian life. It is hard to argue with first-hand experiences like those you have shared in the previous post. In fact, I wonder why you did not do so earlier!

I recall in Bakker's book, [i]I Was Wrong[/i] (I really like this title!), he mentioned how he financially ruined himself partially because he over-extended his finances, thinking that God would bless his ministry.

With respect to Copeland's book, [b]crsschk[/b]'s following point is important:

Quote:
This 'God' has 'formulas' and 'laws' that if you just know how to follow along you will become rich, prosperous, healthy, no problem.

Yes, God fulfills his promises and God's heart is to bless his children. But God is also sovereign, and he works in his own mysterious way at his own timing. Copeland's ideas of "God's spiritual laws" and "God's system of finances" are potentially dangerous, because they could lead us to think that we could manipulate God's power by following a certain formula or pattern of cause and effect. Yet by doing so, we are really compromising God's sovereignty and putting him in a box.

To [b]todd[/b]: Regarding George Mueller, he did not live in self-imposed poverty. His testimony was that God provides the [i]daily[/i] bread. He did not expect God to make him prosperous (in the sense of being financially wealthy); he expected God to provide what he [i]needs[/i] [b]today[/b] in God's own way. This is more in line with Jesus' own teachings.


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Sam

 2004/3/24 11:17Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Thanks Agent001

Quote:
In fact, I wonder why you did not do so earlier!



Good question.

I think it's similar to smashing your thumb with a hammer, the first time it was an accident... ;-)


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Mike Balog

 2004/3/24 12:21Profile





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