SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Looking for free sermon messages?
Sermon Podcast | Audio | Video

Discussion Forum : General Topics : Healing

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 Next Page )
PosterThread
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

I'm sorry if i come across as mocking Ben, I'm not, I'm just curious what he believes and why he believes what he does.

i wont be participating in this thread any more, if i offended anyone I'm sorry about that.

God Bless you Ben and may Jesus Christ use you for his eternal glory ,


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2007/2/22 14:22Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
Healing is one of the ways that Jesus shows his glory on earth, but not the only way. He performed signs and miracles in Tyre and Sidon, but they were unbelieving. Jesus can heal someone who is in unbelief -just like the man lowered through the roof was healed by the faith of his friends.



I absolutely agree with this point.

Quote:
Jesus, as I have already mentioned, the verse in Luke 5 which you have avoided, is said to have been filled with healing power at certain times, which also implies that he was not filled with healing power at other times, or chose not always to heal.



I'm sorry that I did not address that point, I kind of have had my hands full, as this topic has been in two threads, and this is not the only discussion I am involved in. I am trying to be as thourough as I can, but frankly, there have been about five to ten things I have to respond to on each thread, each time I get on. It's a lot to handle.

Anyhow, I will go ahead and address it as best I can:

The scripture does not say that Jesus was "filled with healing power at certain times".

What it does say is:

[b]Luke 5:17

17And it came to pass on a certain day, as he was teaching, that there were Pharisees and doctors of the law sitting by, which were come out of every town of Galilee, and Judaea, and Jerusalem: [u]and the power of the Lord was present to heal them.[/u][/b]

Is Jesus Christ the power of God in the flesh or not?

If you believe He is not, then it is obvious to me why you don't believe as I do.

If you believe that He is, then tell me when the power of God does not have the ability to heal?

And you must use scripture to prove when He doesn't.

(Just a little footnote to get you started in your quest for the truth.) Jesus told the disciples that if they had seen Him, then they had seen the Father. He was telling them that He was God in the flesh.

Quote:
A lot of times healing is a first step for someone into the faith, like the woman with issue of bleeding -not an issue of faith in an ongoing relationship with Jesus. CS Lewis had to deal with 'the problem of pain' and I doubt very many would dispute his anointing.



Annointing, and faith are two different things. Faith grows by the hearing of God's word, Paul makes that clear in Romans.

Quote:
Paul was sick, there were people sick in the early church (verses have already been provided to state this fact) timothy could have been blown over by a gust of wind.



Paul does not say he was sick, he says that it was a messenger of satan. The infirmity he mentions, is his weakness. Not a sickness, that is only an opinion.

I want anyone who wants to use this argument again to go look up what a "messenger of satan" means in the original language. Also look up the word "buffet". That might help you understand what Paul was actually talking about.

As for people being sick in the early church, when did I ever say that there were none? That isn't even a point of contention for me. They were sick, they lacked faith, so what? Jesus wasn't sick, and He certainly did not lack faith. And He is the example we are to model ourselves after primarily, and the disciples secondarily.

Paul says: "Emulate me, as I emulate Christ." Meaning if I don't emulate Christ, then don't emulate what I did.

Quote:
Ben, I really enjoy how you take Timothy's ephod, but not Timothy's cross! Timothy had an anointed ministry, but he was also weak in the flesh. He had a physical burden to bear in order to advance the work of the Gospel. Couldn't God have healed him and given him a strong body? Definitely! Do you think that Timothy lacked faith... well I'd like to see you argue that one.



I think I answered this question above. But if not, yes, Timothy lacked faith. So what? Do you think the Apostles and everyone in the Bible is perfect, and has perfect faith?

I don't understand your point in bringing up Timothy's sickness, it does not say anywhere that it was to bring him closer to God, nor does it say that that was acomplished by that.

Quote:
Christians are going to suffer, physical affliction, persecution, martyrdom. How many saints have died of diseases in the mission field? How many have been scourged for the sake of the Gospel? But for those saints, Jesus will stand at the right hand of the thrown to receive them -and I also believe because he suffers with them, He wants to stop what is happening! But it is not according to his father's plan. The Father lets affliction happen in order to glorify his name -even in disease.



Martyrdom is a different issue, and has nothing to do with sickness.

Sickness is not God's will for anyone, that does not mean that it does not happen, many trials come, what are they for?

It is for the trying of ones what? [b]Their faith.[/b]

Trials are to grow our faith, and if you give up, and lose faith, then it won't grow. Paul tells us to contend earnestly for the faith that was once given.

Quote:
Jesus suffered affliction at Gethsemane, he bore the whole sin of the world on his shoulders, and sweated drops of blood... that's not a normal occurrence. There is a medical explanation, people can actually sweat blood, but it is an extremely rare medical condition, a sickness! Does that mean Jesus was sick? I know what your answer is going to be Ben, so I really don't know if this is even worth bringing up.



I only have one word, [b]Travail[/b]

Have you read Tozer's writings on the subject of Jesus travail? It might clear up the point.

What is more important than healing?

[b]Saving Souls[/b]
No disagreement there, I would abandone praying for someones healing in a second, if it meant the opportunity for a man's soul to be saved.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/22 14:49Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
that verse includes more than healing



I agree, it was used only to make the point.

Quote:
my faith is gift from God, if its not good enough for him why did he give in the first place? did anyone in the entire world get a "great" faith of himself? did John G. Lake have a method he used to get "big" faith? or did God give him his faith? i believe God gave him his faith,



What you said about your faith, is the point I was trying to make.

As for John G. Lake "getting a big faith" yes he did, he sought God, searched his word, believed God, sought his word, and he grew in his faith towards God.

God does not give men a measure of faith which they are stuck with for their whole lives. He gives them faith, and it is man's responsibility to excercize it. No pun intended.

Quote:
and according to scripture how many different kinds of faith is there? because you wrote

First of all, saving faith and healing faith are two totally separate kinds of faith,



i thought there only was one faith, and that in the risen son of God, Jesus Christ, can we have two faiths in him?



That's not what I meant, I'm sorry I didn't clarify. I was trying to point out the difference in how a person believes for each thing, I guess I didn't do a good job of it.

I believe just as the scriptures say, that there is one Lord, one faith...etc...

I just didn't make my point properly, if you would like, I can try again, and try to explain what I was saying.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/22 14:58Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
No, my friend... this is the result of the curse. This is where you err. Man brought sin and suffering on himself. God does not "get the glory" for that. Thats the same line of reasoning that says "a loving God would never send anyone to hell".



This is my whole point, the scripture says:

[b]"Jesus became a curse for us."[/b]

He took the penalty of sin upon Him for both the eternal, and the present. That includes the curse of sin.

It is God's will that we not be sick, does He allow people to be sick, yes. But He would rather that they be healed.

Quote:
Also, show me in scripture where if someone isnt healed it is always God's "second best". You have never answered the Joni question... because you cant.



I did answer this question, I don't know which thread it's in, but I'll check, and give you what page it's on when I find it. I answered it, because I could.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/22 15:04Profile









 Re:

What about a child that gets sick. I had a nephew who died at the age of 4 from leukemia. He was diagnosed at 3.

God chose not to heal him... who lacked faith? The parents or the child? Or was the illness just part of the fall?

Personally I believe the illness was part of the fall. God not healing that boy had nothing to do with the boy's faith. He was too young to really understand it.

Where does that leave your argument?

I dont believe there is an explanation that we can understand about why God allowed that to happen. It's beyond our ability to comprehend as humans. I think thats where people go off the track on these things... they feel like they have to have an explanation. So they say "lack of faith" or something similar what you (Ben) are saying.

I'm perfectly ok knowing that whatever the explanation is... God just wants me to trust Him.

Krispy

 2007/2/22 15:07









 Re: to Ben

Bro Ben

The reason you give offence is not because people reject truth (even if you happen to be 100% right) but because you are behaving like Job's friends. This is also why you come over as very young.

Job's friends said quite a lot of true things, but they were still wrong; because they condemned Job instead of helping him.

Sin wasn't actually the cause of Job's suffering; so their theology was one-sided and incomplete, as, I believe, is yours. Their words also increased Job's suffering and was no help to him at all!

Job wasn't 100% faultless, but the fact remains that in his case his suffering was [i]not[/i] the result of any sin.

But the real problem wasn't their theology but their [i]attitude[/i].

To say to a sick person that its their fault that they're sick (even if it happens to be true in that particular case) is [b][i]just about the most cruel thing you could say to them.[/i][/b]

The only exception would be if the Lord specifically revealed the reason they were not healed, [b][i]and actually told you to confront them with this.[/i][/b]

I can only think of one example where Jesus did this with a sick person, and then only after having healed him! That was the man at the Pool of Siloam. Jesus said, "sin no more, lest a worse thing befall you", implying that it was sin that had caused this particular man's sickness.

Your "big sister" :-P

Jeannette

 2007/2/22 15:11
iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

I read a good article which I think used a few good verses to bring this into perspective: http://www.gotquestions.org/God-allow-sickness.html

Quote:
This does not mean sickness is always from God or that God always inflicts us with sickness to teach us a spiritual lesson. In a world tainted by sin, sickness, disease, and death will always be with us. We are fallen beings, with physical bodies prone to disease and illness. Some sickness is simply a result of the natural course of things in this world. Sickness can also be the result of a demonic attack. The Bible describes several instances when physical suffering was caused by Satan and his demons (Matthew 17:14-18; Luke 13:10-16). So, some sickness is not from God, but from Satan. Even in these instances, [b]God is still in control. God sometimes allows sin and/or Satan to cause physical suffering[/b]. Even when sickness is not directly from God, [b]He will still use it according to His perfect will[/b].

It is undeniable, though, that God sometimes intentionally allows, or even causes sickness to accomplish His sovereign purposes. While sickness is not directly addressed in the passage, Hebrews 12:5-11 describes God disciplining us to "produce a harvest of righteousness" (verse 11). [b]Sickness can be a means of God's loving discipline[/b]. It is difficult for us to comprehend why God would work in this manner. But, believing in the sovereignty of God, there is no other option than suffering being something God allows and/or causes.

The clearest example of this in Scripture is found is Psalm 119. Notice the progression through verses 67, 71, and 75 - "Before I was afflicted I went astray, but now I obey your word...[b]It was good for me to be afflicted so that I might learn your decrees...I know, O LORD, that your laws are righteous, and in faithfulness you have afflicted me[/b]." The author of Psalm 119 was looking at suffering from God's perspective. It was good for him to be afflicted. [i]It was faithfulness that caused God to afflict him[/i]. The result of the affliction was so that he could learn God's decrees and obey His Word.



I really like what Jeanette had to say about Job! That is an awesome insight and very similar to this article!


_________________
Ian Smith

 2007/2/22 15:20Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
It is clear that there has been much bitterness on behalf of BenWilliams -very few would dispute that his words have been sharp and full of poison.



I have no bitterness towards anyone on any thread, I speak from experience, as I grew up a very resentful and bitter person, to the point that I hated even God.

So after having read what you asked, and examining myself, I can tell you with the utmost sicerity that I hold no bitterness, or resentment, or even dislike, for anyone in any of these threads.

I really am sorry that you feel that way, I do not consider it to be bitterness, to say what I believe, and then defend it. If it is wrong, I will admit it, but not one person has taken any challenge of scripture I gave them on this thread or the other.

And everyone continues to try to goad me with questions which are taken out of context, opinions of theologians which are not proveable by scripture, continuous goading about my age as though that has anything to do with anything, and many false accusations.

I have only addressed these issues, and refuted false accusations, and held people accountable to proper context, doctrine, and opinion. I have not once called anyone names, even though it has been done to me, and I have kept the utmost in civility in my posts.

Just because what I have said offends you, that does not give you the right to rebuke me as being bitter. What has offended you, has caused you to accuse me falsely once again.

I forgive you, and humbly ask that you would go to the Lord about this. - Ben


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/22 15:20Profile
strawrifle
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 139
uk

 Re:

Your reply about Joni is shocking..I really see no point replying to this thread,your on a different planet from me..

Romans 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.


_________________
andy

 2007/2/22 16:21Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Why is it shocking?

Is it because it is not typical American Christianity?

Is it because you think it is somehow calloused of me to believe someone being sick, or lame, or paralized, is second best to God's will?

I say that it is wonderful of anyone, sick, lame, or paralized to serve God to the best of their abilities. But if they were to be healed, they could do far more for God than they could in an injured or diseased state. Praise God that they work for His service.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/22 16:32Profile





©2002-2019 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy