I am just saying "the shoe fits". When I talk to christians they either are nutso about Jesus and His healing powers, but have no revelation about true grace. Or they are "anti-healing" I have Christians who refuse to let me pray with them b/c God wants them to be sick. I see the same kind of language on these boards. I have said numerous times I have diabetes not a clue why, had it since I was four, but I can definatley say it's not God's will for me to have diabetes. This is a quote from Andrew Murray "Heaven is the unhindered manifestation of God's will"...there will be no diabetes in heaven
Krispy one more thing
Keep me in prayer b/c I have been keeping you...I was painfully zinged and abused by the WOF lies. Lets both pray for each other to not lose the ( yes very few ;-) ) truths we were taught there. God Bless
| 2007/2/22 9:25||Profile|
Provost... Hey, I have diabetes as well. I was diagnosed 6 yrs ago as a Type II. I assume you're Type I. It was a shock to me because I have always been athletic and even at "almost 40" I work out and lift weights 4 times a week. Yet, here I am with diabetes.
Anyway, of course I'll be in prayer for you, brother. All anyone ever has to do is ask me to pray for them, and I'm all over it.
Perhaps we should now try and turn this discussion away from how we all feel about WOF... and begin to discuss Biblical healing. What does scripture teach us about healing?
Who would like to start?
| 2007/2/22 10:01|
Where I would start it where all theology should start...at God.
Jesus Christ was the revelation told about in the prophets. In Hebrews we get a further picture in how Christ was God and how there will be no new revelation...Christ was the final revelation of God.
I would say that when we look at Jesus He was a healer. He did move in compassion. Was everyone that was sick healed? no, but what I see in Scripture is everyone that came up to Him was. I am not saying I have an answer to healing or sickness, but I would say that before we go into prayer for anything (healing) we need to seek Jesus. When I discuss healing with other people I want to enthrone Jesus before discussing the issue, or asking Christ to manifest Himself through a sign, because the main problem in peoples life is not any sickness it's their knowledge of God (that's mine to..that's all of us..we could always know more about the Lord). And as brothers let's always start with gazing at Jesus
| 2007/2/22 10:14||Profile|
| Re: Healing|
I believe that healing is for the believers for this reason:
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Saved means in the Strongs=
1) to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction
a) one (from injury or peril)
1) to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health
1) to preserve one who is in danger of destruction, to save or rescue
b) to save in the technical biblical sense
a) to deliver from the penalties of the Messianic judgment
b) to save from the evils which obstruct the reception of the Messianic deliverance
AV - save 93, make whole 9, heal 3, be whole 2, misc 3; 110
krispy asked why people don't live to be 2000, this is the reason why:
Psa 90:10 The days of our years [are] threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength [they be] fourscore years, yet [is] their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.
Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
Exd 20:12 ¶ Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
1Pe 3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
It was God who declared the length of man's days and certain factors in our lives can effect our length of life, like not honoring our mother or father. And by the way it doesn't say if the deserve honor. Also if we drink the cup in an unworthy manner:
1Cr 11:27 ¶ Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink [this] cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1Cr 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of [that] bread, and drink of [that] cup.
1Cr 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1Cr 11:30 For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
1Cr 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
1Cr 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
The R.C. Ryle said that we should embrace sickness so if it is a blessing why not ask for cancer or some like it?
Now before you start screaming at me I have never followed the WOF folks, in fact I have steared clear of them. Name it and claim it really bothers me because it has no accountability. You can live any nasty way you want and still claim the promises. I am bothered by that. However I again would suggest you read "The Real Faith for Healing" by Charles Price. This is very old book so don't associate it with the man's picture that comes up on this site. The one who wrote this book was an old man.
His teaching was that we seek the healer, not the healing. This sets right with me because the woman with the issue of blood said it she could but touch the hem of His garment she would be healed. According to your faith be it unto you.
Now I know again the quote will be Paul accepting his thorn in the flesh. I say if God comes to you and tells you He wants to leave you the way you are after fully seeking Him then receive it and His grace will be sufficient for you and me. I have read Joni Erickson's testimony myself and God told her He was leaving her unhealed for a reason, so she accepted it. However until God tells me different I will take Him at His word "sozo" and press in to touch the hem of His garment.
I think part of the hinderence to healing, please note I said part, is that we don't press into God we press into healing. When we live in the light of His presence He life erradicates our infirmities, unless He has told us differently. The trouble is we don't dwell in His presence. We make little side excursions when we have time, but our other "priorities" take the cental throne in our hearts. I guarantee that when Moses and Jesus came down the mountain from the presence of God no infirmities were present in their bodies. Yes God did allow some to keep certain things either to keep them humble or as a reminder. I will accept that if I ever get to the place they did. Until then I will press into to God. I will search for intimacy with Him and know that His light will dispel any darkness that is in my life, including sickness. I have seen it happen time and again.
I take exception to the notion that people get sick because they lacked faith. The enemy of our souls puts sickness on us like he did Job, however God healed Job. I can tell you of times in my business when one of my employees comes up to me and says I have strep I need to be off work and immediately my throat begins to hurt. I say devil you are a liar. That sickness can't come on me that fast. I say Jesus made provision for me by His stripes and I stand on Your word Lord. And just as fast as the symptom came it leaves. I have walked in God's word for healing for over thirty years and it is true. Have I never stuggled, yes, but that doesn't change the word of God. When I touch Him I receive His healing.
If we would spend as much time on our faces worshipping Him and basking in His presence as we do on these computers we would experience that glory and would walk in more of the provision than we do. I am certain of it.
Last but not least, last night I went to hear missionary Heidi Baker speak. It was wonderful to hear someone speak who attibutes everything to intimacy with God. Their ministry is seeing healing, deaf, blind, dead raised, etc. Mark 16 stuff. Why?, because Heidi learned the secret that she could accomplish more in one minute after being in His presence "intimacy" than she could have in thirty years of working without it.
My pastor said " These signs will follow those who believe they will follow".
I can attest they do. At work I lay hands on the sick and "many" recover. Do all? I don't know, I do know that a number come back and tell me they were well, even of cancer.
I will do and believe the word. If God tells me for whateve reason He wants to leave me or someone sick and I'm sure it's Him then OK, but until then I am sozo'd
| 2007/2/22 10:21||Profile|
By the way... when I was diagnosed with Type II diabetes 6 yrs ago, I was told by old "friends" in the WOF movement that it was God's judgement on me for rejecting WOF doctrine. How's that for manipulation! I was told if I ever came to a place where I had faith, and saw the error of my rejection of WOF... then God would heal me, because it's His will to heal ALL those who believe.
Believe me... I have faith in my God. He could heal me today of diabetes if it was His will. And I have prayed for it, according to His will. And so far, He says to me the same thing He said to Paul: [b]My grace is sufficient for you.[/b]
And I am satisfied in that.
Anyone have enough faith to accept that His grace is all you need? You dont [i]need[/i] healing... you dont [i]need[/i] wealth... you [b]need[/b] His grace! And thats [b]all[/b] you need.
Anything else is icing on the cake.... and believe me, I've eaten a lot of icing since I started walking with Him. He is a great God. But we cant manipulate Him, which is what WOF teaches.
| 2007/2/22 10:54|
Goldminer... I think you and I are not too far apart on this. A few nuances here and there, but I think we're on the same chapter, if not the same page.
| 2007/2/22 11:15|
El Paso, Texas
Ben/Goddamus,i have spent nearly all my adult life working with disabled people,elderly,brain damaged units etc..I got to be honest ur post is so frustrating (i'm being restrained)..
You've not answered the most important post on this thread,which was Krispys!! You've seemed to of glossed over Joni Erikson Tada ministry..A lady who seems to of been healed inside of bitterness,frustrations and what ifs..
I'm asking you directly is Joni ministry a second best ministry because shes not healed? Is she not living up to everything she could be,if only she was healed in UR opinion?
I will address it, I must have missed it.
My answer is yes, if the sick are not being healed, and saved, then it is second best to what God wants.
In this case it would be No. If the ministry is actively praying for healing, and just not seeing any, they must continue to be faithful to do what the word teaches, regardless of the outcome.
[b]If they do not, it is because they have unbelief, and fear of men.[/b]
| 2007/2/22 11:52||Profile|
El Paso, Texas
according to this "God wants to heal everyone" new covenant thing, it is something that to me seems lacking whit that, if it should be like that that we could never be sick if we only had a strong faith, (still believe we get our faith from God, so indirect its Gods fault) but we still get sick? do you Ben ever catch a cold or something? when you do is your faith lower then? and if our faith isn't big enough to overcome a small decease how do we know we have faith that overcome sin? because to me if my faith is so week it cant beat a small cold or fever, it isn't something id rely on to get me to heaven... i just cant see that in scripture... can anyone explain that?
First of all, saving faith and healing faith are two totally seperate kinds of faith.
You are trying to combine to things into one, so as to prove that your unbelief is justified.
The scripture says: [b]"These signs shall follow them that believe..."[/b]
Signs and wonders are one proof of belief.
James says: [b]"Show me your faith by your works."[/b]
Faith in God to heal, is a faith in the word of God, a faith in His promises which are in the word, and a faith in His omnipotence.
Faith in God for salvation, is believing that Jesus Christ died, and rose again, and that He is the justification for your sin.
There is a man in the NT that says [b]"Lord I believe, I believe!"[/b] and then he suddenly realizes that his belief is not good enough, and says: [b]"Lord help Thou my unbelief!"[/b]
In asnwer to your question about when I myself get sick:
The answer is yes, my faith is low, what do I do? I cry out to God, help Thou my unbelief! Am I always healed? Not yet, but one day, I believe I will never get sick again.
Have you ever read about John G. Lake?
He taught on the subject of Divine Health, he never got sick, ever.
Not only that, there is a story about him in which he challenged some scientists to take the foam from the lungs of a dead bubonic plague victim, and place it in his hand, and put the microscope over the bacteria from the plague. He told them that as soon as the bacteria touched his hand, it would kill it.
What he said would happen, did happen, it killed the plague. That was when there was no cure for the bubonic plague.
You see, he was a man who had faith.
| 2007/2/22 12:28||Profile|
El Paso, Texas
I believe with all my heart that God is going to turn this paper in front of me into a million dollars... instantly! Wait, it hasn't happened, it must be because of my unbelief ~ oh woe is me.
I believe with all my heart that God is going to cure my grandmother of her terminal illness... instantly! Wait, it hasn't happened, she passed away, it must be because of my unbelief - oh woe is me.
Wait, it could be because only a lunatic would think that he could turn white paper into a million dollars worth of bills instantly... why is it that the same isn't true of healing.
3Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.[/b]
[b][u]You cannot relegate God's will to heal people based off of your own experience. It must come from the wrod of God, in which is found Christ's continual will to heal everyone.[/u][/b]
| 2007/2/22 12:35||Profile|
El Paso, Texas
And so when I come across someone like Ben... my heart gets ripped out. It's like he is on one side of the Jordan, and I'm on the other. I know the truth about the land on this side, but he can't see it yet. But I've been on his side of the river, and I know the danger that is over there. And make no mistake... WOF is spiritual danger in the highest degree. But he doesnt see it. And thats where my passion for this comes from.
So you know Krispy, I do not agree with the WOF movement, they ere on many areas.
I have both had your opinion on the issue, and now have what is my belief on the subject.
I used to believe that it was God's will to heal sometimies, and other times not. I since spent my time dilligently rearching the issue, and found that it is always God's will to heal people, that does not mean that they are always healed. But that does not change the fact that He wishes them to always be healed.
This is not heretical doctrine. Heretical doctrine is to believe that our Father in heaven who gives good gifts, gets glory from making us sick, or diseased.
| 2007/2/22 12:50||Profile|