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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Hebrews 6:4-6 - What Does It Mean?

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JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Here are some verses that should make internal and external calling more clear:

1 Corinthians 1:22-23
"For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."

Three types of people are mentioned:
- Jews
- Gentiles
- The Internally Called

We are able to discern that the 'called' is an internal calling because the Jews and Gentiles who reject the gospel are not referred to as being 'called'.

In the above verses the Jews and Gentiles hear the external calling of the gospel.
The Jews reply: "We need a sign to believe."
The Gentiles reply: "This is foolishness"
The Internally Called reply: "This is the power of God and the wisdom of God"

All three heard the external call, but only those who heard the internal call (from among the Jews and Gentiles) responded in faith.

 2007/2/27 14:23Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3699
Ca.

 Re:

Is this not internal?

Eph 2:22
In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


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Phillip

 2007/2/27 16:01Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Hey Jay, & Christinyou, don't take this the wrong way, but I have to ask the question so that I know what to talk about and what not to talk about.

Do you believe that when you interpret scripture, that it is ok to pull one verse out of the Bible and form a theology based on that one scripture?

Or do you believe that on the contrary you must balance that scripture number one by the full context of the passage it is in, and then number two by other scriptures from other passages in context?


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Benjamin Williams

 2007/3/1 10:22Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Scripture interprets scripture. I hope that in my writings I have demonstrated that I pay close attention to context and style. I also try to remember what a verse explicitly says and what it implicitly says.
Explicit - expressing all details in a clear and obvious way, leaving no doubt as to the intended meaning
Implicit - not stated, but understood in what is expressed

If a verse implicitly says one thing, it must not contradict another verse that explicitly says another thing.

For example:
John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

This verse explicitly says that whoever believes in Jesus will not perish and will have everlasting life.
This verse implicitly says that every single person has the opportunity to believe in Jesus.

Contrast this verse with Romans 8:30
“Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”

This verse explicitly says that all who are called are justified. Thus this verse explicitly says that the reason some people are not justified is because they are not Called.

So we must deduce that the implicit meaning of John 3:16 is incorrect based upon the explicit meaning of Romans 8:30. Every single person does not have the opportunity to believe because not every single person is Called.

 2007/3/1 12:13Profile
BenWilliams
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Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

And what about context? Do you think that a verse's meaning is implicitly tied to the context in which it was written, or is it available to be pulled out and singled out regardless of the context?


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Benjamin Williams

 2007/3/1 12:35Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

2 Peter 3:9 is a good example of context.

 2007/3/1 13:03Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
2 Peter 3:9 is a good example of context.



Does that mean that you believe we must interpret a verse first by context?

Or do you believe that it is ok to interpret a verse without examining context to determine its meaning?


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Benjamin Williams

 2007/3/1 13:06Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

If our interpretation of a verse does not match the surrounding context then our interpretation is error.

For example, as I mentioned [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=14831&forum=36&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=1]before[/url] concerning 2 Peter 3:9:

Quote:
II Peter 3:9
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

You emphasized 'not willing'. I agree that the Lord is not willing that any should perish. But take a closer look at the verse. It says that God is longsuffering to whom? Us.

Who is the 'Us' referring to? The Beloved
Verse 8 - But Beloved

Who are the Beloved? The people Peter is addressing in his letter.
Verse 1 - This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you

Who is Peter writing to in this letter? Christians
2 Peter 1:1 - Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ"

But this is the second letter, what does the first say? 1 Peter 1:2 - Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ

So clearly Peter is saying that the Lord is not slow in keeping his promise to his elect concerning his second coming. The Lord is longsuffering because he is not willing that anyone elected according to the foreknowledge of God should perish but that all of them come to repentance.

 2007/3/1 13:44Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Ok, cool. I just wanted to clear up the context issue before I responded to what you said earlier.

I gotta go to lunch now, so I will post later.


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Benjamin Williams

 2007/3/1 13:52Profile









 Re:

Quote:

BenWilliams wrote:
Quote:
2 Peter 3:9 is a good example of context.



Does that mean that you believe we must interpret a verse first by context?

Or do you believe that it is ok to interpret a verse without examining context to determine its meaning?



I think that, in general, the only time its OK to take (or maybe "apply" would be a better word)Scripture out of context is when the [i]Holy Spirit[/i] inspires us to do so. He caused the Word to be written so He has the right! We don't.

Have you ever found the Lord speak to you by dovetailing Scriptures together that you would never have thought of connecting? I can't think of a specific example now, but it does happen, It's such a thrill when things suddenly seem to fall into place, in a way that you wouldn't be able left to yourself.

We do find this happening sometimes in the New Testament, where the Old Testament was applied differently, or in a different context.

One that comes to mind is when Jesus quoted in John 10:34

"34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

The quote is from either Psalm 82:6 or Isaiah 41:23, and doesn't seem to fit very well?
If [i]Jesus[/i] hadn't used "ye are gods" in that way I might think it was rather out of context.

Or when Peter said on the Day of Pentecost, that "this was that which was spoken by the prophet Joel..." They weren't dreaming dreams or seeing visions, they were speaking in languages they had never learnt. Sounds like poor exegesis to me!

But I wouldn't seriously think that is so!


Jeannette

 2007/3/1 18:24





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