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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Hebrews 6:4-6 - What Does It Mean?

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BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Well Jay, you got me there, I don't have the knowledge necessary to argue the point off of that passage of scripture.

I would like to hear your response to my post before this one.


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Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/26 12:20Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Have you read what Jay wrote?

Quote:
Do you think that God is so omnipotent that He can give man true free will? (meaning freedom from anyone's will exept their own, not bound by understanding or desires.)



Again the point is that man is "free yet bound", out of his heart proceed the deeds he does. It is much like a boat rudder. Though the boat may go seemingly on its own, the hand that controls the rudder controls its direction. Sin is at the rudder of every man thus directing his movements, that is until there is a new hand upon the rudder which would be after regeneration.

Quote:
Do you think that God is so omniscient that He can forget our sins?



It is not a matter of Him forgetting our sins, but rather that he has blotted them out by having Christ die in the place of the guilty party. The blood has erased the handwriting that was against us.

Think of a court room. If the judge said to the criminal, "I am willing to forget your crimes, and let you go" there would not be justice. But God is absolutely just. Therefore it is much more like this scenario. The judge declares the senrence of death upon the criminal, and then another dies in their place to fulfill the requirements of the law. By doing this justice has been accomplished, and so has mercy. Then when the criminal is set free, it is grace.


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patrick heaviside

 2007/2/26 12:30Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Ben, I understand your position. You struggle with the idea that God can choose some men and not choose others. You view this as not being fair. I have struggled with that myself. But, what I must do is forget my definition of 'fairness' and go by what the word of God says.

I am convinced from scripture that God hardens whom He will harden and has mercy on whom He will have mercy. I wish things were done differently and that all men would be saved, but we know that is just not how things work.

Quote:
I just want one person who believes cavinistically (if that's a word) to admit that they believe God made men and according to His will and then just damned some to hell, and elected some to heaven.



I don't believe that. I believe that God created man and His creation was Good. It was man who fell in the garden through Adam. All men are spiritually dead because of Adam's sin. It is God who according to His own Will redeems a people through Jesus Christ. The rest are left in their state of wickedness to reap what they sow.

As a Christian I believe all of the following:
1. God is sovereign in salvation.
2. Man is responsible for his actions.
3. God is completely good and there is no sin in Him.

 2007/2/26 13:25Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
I don't believe that. I believe that God created man and His creation was Good. It was man who fell in the garden through Adam. All men are spiritually dead because of Adam's sin. It is God who according to His own Will redeems a people through Jesus Christ. The rest are left in their state of wickedness to reap what they sow.




Do you not see, that by God not saving them, He is damning them to hell?

If you believe that by God choosing someone, that they will be justified.

Then you must belive that by God not choosing them to be justified He is choosing that they be damned.

Did not God create Adam with the ability to sin against Him?

If so, then He knew by doing so that Adam would sin against Him.

[b]And if He did that willingly, then He willingly damned thousands to hell without hope of salvation because [u]He chose not to redeem them.[/u][/b]

Why won't ya'll just say in simple english that you believe God damned the whole world to hell, except for the few who He would redeem?

And if you won't say that, tell me why God will not redeem the whole world?


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Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/26 13:52Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
Do you not see, that by God not saving them, He is damning them to hell?

If you believe that by God choosing someone, that they will be justified.
Then you must belive that by God not choosing them to be justified He is choosing that they be damned.

Did not God create Adam with the ability to sin against Him?

If so, then He knew by doing so that Adam would sin against Him.

And if He did that willingly, then He willingly damned thousands to hell without hope of salvation because He chose not to redeem them.

Why won't ya'll just say in simple english that you believe God damned the whole world to hell, except for the few who He would redeem?

And if you won't say that, tell me why God will not redeem the whole world?



Paul answers this objection to His Election in Romans 9:14-24
"What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"

Ben, you might not like this answer, but it is the answer to your objection.

 2007/2/26 14:25Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

So then in plain english, you believe that God ordained that some are damned to hell, and some are elected to heaven without a choice in the matter?

Just like that, yes or no?

Based off of both your and my last posts.


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Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/26 14:43Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

God ordained that man should walk with Him in everlasting communion, and fellowship.
Man sinned, and brought death upon all men
God has decreed that man must repent to have everlasting life
Man has a responsiblity to God now, not vice versa.


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patrick heaviside

 2007/2/26 14:51Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

I agree with you on those four points RL


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Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/26 15:04Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Now how does repentance happen?
How does a man gain knowledge of his sin?
How is it that a man can walk for years without caring for his soul, but can suddenly feel conviction?


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/2/26 15:13Profile









 Re:

Quote:

roaringlamb wrote:
Now how does repentance happen?
How does a man gain knowledge of his sin?
How is it that a man can walk for years without caring for his soul, but can suddenly feel conviction?



Conviction of the Holy Spirit?

 2007/2/26 15:17





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