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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Hebrews 6:4-6 - What Does It Mean?

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Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Jhn 18:9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.

Now just because He went to the cross, do you think He is now going to loose those that are chosen and given by the Father? Now we are being given to His Body the Church, and the "gates of Hell will not prevail against it". Even if you could fall away, do you think God is not Faithful to Christ and Christ is not faithful to the Father by saving and keeping those that can loose such precious salvation? I don't think so.

I agree, 4-6 is not saying you can loose your salvation. It is saying even if you could it would be impossible to renew you again to repentance, which is impossible by the Christ that is born again in you. Do you thinK this new birth is just a statement in scripture that means nothing? NOT! This mystery given to Paul is the greatest revelation of Scripture, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".
Every time Paul mentions this mystery, he is speaking of the birthing of Christ in a person. Paul never says born again, he uses mystery instead. Christ in you, you in Christ, being born again, being born from above are all the mystery of the birthing to Paul

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/2/25 1:08Profile
HomeFree89
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Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re:

All the promises in the Bible are conditional.

"Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement." - 1 Peter 3:6

"as long as ye do well" sure sounds conditional to me.

What about Demas? He went back to the world.

What about enduring to the end? There must be those who won't continue enduring and will not get to Heaven.

Just so you don't think that I'm living in eternal insecurity. I'm not living in dread that some morning I'll wake up and realize that I'm not saved anymore. Here's a quote from David Bercot that states what I believe, "Does an obedient son need to worry about losing his inheritance?"

Jordan


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Jordan

 2007/2/25 14:50Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Was the prodigal son obedient? Only when he returned to his Father. He was still a son, and the father kept looking for him to return. We are son's also by the Seed of God Jesus Christ in us, birthed with all the rights still in place not matter how far or hard we try to run. I cannot runaway form my earthly father and mother heritage, I am still their son. How much more being a son of God. My earthly father and mother would do all they could to bring me back for my running. How much more being a son of God, The Cross will not be to no avail.

Even before the Cross: Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.
How much more after the Cross. 1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

If God has birthed His Son in me, it will accomplish what He wants for His pleasure, no matter hard I run. I will learn obedience.
If Christ, how much more me? Hbr 5:8 Though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He suffered; So will we as sons and daughters. Eternal security is not up to the believer it is of God.

Lev 22:21 And whosoever offereth a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD to accomplish [his] vow, or a freewill offering in beeves or sheep, it shall be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no blemish therein. Was Christ perfect? Is He still perfect that is birthed in you? Are you accepted as Christ is?

Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:

Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead, and set [Him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],

Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Isa 55:11 So shall My Word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto Me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.

Who is the Word and Seed in us? 1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible Seed, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made. In Him was life; and the life was the light of men.

The Word, The Life in Him. Jesus Christ Born Again in the believer. Again, if you are birthed by God's Seed Jesus Christ, the birthing will not return void.

That is why it is impossible to fall away from God unto no repentance, for it could not happen, it would take away the Cross of Christ and He will not be sent to the Cross again. This is the Peace of God. Jhn 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

There is a falling away that cannot be renewed and that is only because of unbelief, but if they believe and are born again they cannot fall away to no repentance. It is impossible.

Hebrews 4:2-9 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as He said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For He spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

It was preached, as in Heb 4: but it was unbelief that kept them from entering in, so they could not fall away, they never had it.
The assurance is, It is impossible to those that have interred into Christ Jesus and His rest and peace for those to fall away.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/2/25 17:47Profile
staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1519


 Re:

homefree89 wrote:
All the promises in the Bible are conditional.

"Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement." - 1 Peter 3:6

"as long as ye do well" sure sounds conditional to me.

What about Demas? He went back to the world.

What about enduring to the end? There must be those who won't continue enduring and will not get to Heaven.

Just so you don't think that I'm living in eternal insecurity. I'm not living in dread that some morning I'll wake up and realize that I'm not saved anymore. Here's a quote from David Bercot that states what I believe, "Does an obedient son need to worry about losing his inheritance?"

Just an obvious question I suppose to this quote:Obedient son lives to be 50 and remains obedient but then is disobedient once just before he gets hit by a bus and dies.Does he loose his inheritance?
Rgd staff

 2007/2/25 17:57Profile
HomeFree89
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re:

Quote:

staff wrote:

Just an obvious question I suppose to this quote:Obedient son lives to be 50 and remains obedient but then is disobedient once just before he gets hit by a bus and dies.Does he loose his inheritance?
Rgd staff





No, if you have child that trys to please you and do what's right, but sometimes fails would characterize him as disobedient? Would you take him out of your will because he sometimes disobeys you?

Jordan


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Jordan

 2007/2/25 19:01Profile
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Joined: 2007/2/8
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 Re:

RE:Qoute below by homefree89:

No, if you have child that trys to please you and do what's right, but sometimes fails would characterize him as disobedient? Would you take him out of your will because he sometimes disobeys you

Well in the case I outlined we dont know whether or not the supposed child would have continued in his disobedience or returned to be obedient because he died.Also if your are obedient,disobedient,obedient,disobedient etc does that mean he was saved,not saved,saved,not saved.Thirdly is disobedience a series of wrongs or just one wrong;what I mean is David was disobedient and he did only one thing wrong in getting a census of the nation.Is disobedience just sin or a series of sins?
No I would not take him out of my will for being sometimes disobedient nor for disobeying alot,nor for disobeying me totally.However their would be consequences

Rgds Staff

 2007/2/25 19:47Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

[b]I would like to bring this discussion back to simple arguments if we could, as it is exhausting reading everyones five page thesis.[/b]

I have ben told according to those in this forum that share calvinistic beliefs, that God does not do things according to foreknowledge, but he only does things according to His "immutable will".

If God only does what is in His will, then I want to know why He goes against His own will by choosing some for heaven, and some for hell?

[b][color=FF3300]II Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, [u]not willing[/u] that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.[/color][/b]

I underlined it incase anyone's theology was preventing them from actually reading what it says. So, one of you explain why He goes against His own will.


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Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/26 11:22Profile
roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Though God is willing this does not negate man's responsibility to repent which he is unable to do apart from a work of the Holy Spirit. Man is not eternally damned not because he was predestined to be damned, but because he did not repent towards God and believe on Christ, which again is impossible for man to do without a work of the Holy Spirit.

Also, does not the creator have the "free will" to make of his creation what he wishes? Read Romans 9 and look at how Pharaoh is spoken of. He was a vessel created to show God's power, yet did not God know that he would perish in the Red Sea?

Here is a question for you to wrestle with
If God is omnipotent, where does that stop and yet remain omnipotence? If He is omniscient, then when does that stop and still remain omniscience?

Have fun brother :-D


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patrick heaviside

 2007/2/26 11:52Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Ben,

II Peter 3:9
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

You emphasized 'not willing'. I agree that the Lord is not willing that any should perish. But take a closer look at the verse. It says that God is longsuffering to whom? Us.

Who is the 'Us' referring to? The Beloved
Verse 8 - But Beloved

Who are the Beloved? The people Peter is addressing in his letter.
Verse 1 - This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you

Who is Peter writing to in this letter? Christians
2 Peter 1:1 - Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ"

But this is the second letter, what does the first say? 1 Peter 1:2 - Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ

So clearly Peter is saying that the Lord is not slow in keeping his promise to his elect concerning his second coming. The Lord is longsuffering because he is not willing that anyone elected according to the foreknowledge of God should perish but that all of them come to repentance.

 2007/2/26 11:53Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
Though God is willing this does not negate man's responsibility to repent which he is unable to do apart from a work of the Holy Spirit. Man is not eternally damned not because he was predestined to be damned, but because he did not repent towards God and believe on Christ, which again is impossible for man to do without a work of the Holy Spirit.



I just want one person who believes cavinistically (if that's a word) to admit that they believe God made men and according to His will and then just damned some to hell, and elected some to heaven.

Everyone I discuss this with tries to weasel out and say, "well, God didn't damn them, they were sinful, so they deserved to be damned." Yet at the same time, they do as you have, and say that man cannot repent unless God moves on him, changes his understanding, and justifies him.

Would one of you please hold true to what you believe?

If God chooses not to do those three things I just mentioned, then He has chosen to damn the person to hell according to your theology. You cannot have it both ways.

If one of you would admit that you believe that, and stop using circular logic, I would be satisfied, we could move on in our discussion.

Quote:
Here is a question for you to wrestle withIf God is omnipotent, where does that stop and yet remain omnipotence? If He is omniscient, then when does that stop and still remain omniscience?



To answer these questions, let me ask two.

Do you think that God is so omnipotent that He can give man true free will? (meaning freedom from anyone's will exept their own, not bound by understanding or desires.)

Do you think that God is so omniscient that He can forget our sins?


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Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/26 12:17Profile





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