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Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3703
Ca.

 Re:

How can any man say he chose God? No man will ever choose God unless God gives him the ability.
Man has not since Adam, ever chosen God unless faith was imputed to him, it was not his faith that believed, it was God's Faith in Christ being our justification, Christ is made our Justification 1 Corinthians 1:30. If we are sanctified by Christ in righteousness, wisdom, redemption. Christ is our only redemption, we cannot redeem ourselves and if we cannot choose God and never would, there is only one thing left. It is God who saves us in Christ Jesus and it is God who gives revelation to believe. It is nothing upon us except to believe what God has said, "Jesus Christ is the Son of God" and nothing will separate us from that belief and love, not even ourselves.

You can only choose something you never had by being given the ability from above to believe, that "Jesus Christ Is the Son of God", unto salvation. John 3:16.

Romans 8:31-39 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? (((It is God that justifieth.))) Who is he that condemneth? ((I cannot condemn myself)) It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Save yourself, I don't think so. Condemn yourself with petty unbelief, I don't think so.
Nothing will separate us from God's Choice. We choose nothing it is given us and we cannot make the Cross of Christ of no effect. It is impossible for those in Christ to fall away, if it were possible there would be no returning. That is not God's Plan. His plan is Eph 1:4, His Choice not ours. We were never an independent self, we are either of our father Satan or of God our Father by Jesus Christ in us.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/2/24 3:56Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: The Called and the Chosen

Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
How can any man say he chose God? No man will ever choose God unless God gives him the ability.
Man has not since Adam, ever chosen God unless faith was imputed to him, it was not his faith that believed, it was God's Faith in Christ being our justification, Christ is made our Justification 1 Corinthians 1:30. If we are sanctified by Christ in righteousness, wisdom, redemption. Christ is our only redemption, we cannot redeem ourselves and if we cannot choose God and never would, there is only one thing left. It is God who saves us in Christ Jesus and it is God who gives revelation to believe. It is nothing upon us except to believe what God has said, "Jesus Christ is the Son of God" and nothing will separate us from that belief and love, not even ourselves.

You can only choose something you never had by being given the ability from above to believe, that "Jesus Christ Is the Son of God", unto salvation. John 3:16.

Romans 8:31-39 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? (((It is God that justifieth.))) Who is he that condemneth? ((I cannot condemn myself)) It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Save yourself, I don't think so. Condemn yourself with petty unbelief, I don't think so.
Nothing will separate us from God's Choice. We choose nothing it is given us and we cannot make the Cross of Christ of no effect. It is impossible for those in Christ to fall away, if it were possible there would be no returning. That is not God's Plan. His plan is Eph 1:4, His Choice not ours. We were never an independent self, we are either of our father Satan or of God our Father by Jesus Christ in us.

In Christ: Phillip




I perceive you are a Calvinist - Everyone that is saved is predestined, and once saved, you cannot lose your salvation! But faith is not given until the decision for Christ is made. And God does not make our decision for us.

How I wish it were true. We would never have to do anything, and the only point in working towards holiness would be for rewards, not to please God, and show our love and respect.

Granted, in the Sovereignty of God, He has to do a great deal to get us ready to make a single decision. We cannot find God unless He calls us.

But He doesn't want robots. God wants a family, that loves and trusts Him by Choice. He wants us to rule and reign with Christ. How can we do that without a true choice? We would merely be chesspieces on an eternal interdimensional chessboard.

As for once saved, always saved, what say you about the warning not to grieve the Holy Spirit, or the question of the unforgivable sin? And what about the fact that if one curses the Holy Spirit, you are damned?

Yes, I know God knows what will happen. I also can feel His pain for those that refuse His call. It is written in the scriptures, "Many are called, but few are chosen. If God were cut and dried over what would happen, He would not care what we did. We would simply be His.

But even the Angels have the ability to be for or against Him. And because we are made with the potential to be more than Angels in Heaven, a degree of interest of more than mere rewards in heaven is warranted.

God wants our love, proven by our obedience. The more we prove it, the more He wants to reward us, just like a good parent loves to gratify his children just because they try so hard, and are so loveable.

Please re-consider your position.

Our only choice is to say yes or no, and having said yes, to follow through with our whole hearts. Those that don't miss out on a lot, most of which is God's loving care now, and eternal salvation.

We truly can do nothing of ourselves, except agree to salvation, or not. If we agree, then God works through the Holy Spirit to change us, and the harder we work with the Holy Spirit, the faster we can be changed. But we must choose. And we must stay in that viewpoint, and work toward holiness according to the light that is given us.

Blessings,


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/2/24 9:11Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Called and Chosen With No Choice - No Way!

Quote:

JaySaved wrote:
Romans 8:29-30
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

Quote:

When I read that passage of scripture, all I see is the word "calling". And it does not say anywhere there whether it is internal, or external.



Is it an internal calling or an external calling?

Here is what the scripture says:
- All who are foreknown are predestined.
- All who are predestined are called.
- All who are called are justified.
- All who are justified are glorified.

We can gather from these verses the following:
- Nobody is glorified unless they are first justified.
- Nobody is justified unless they are first called.
- Nobody is called unless they are first predestined.
- Nobody is predestined unless they are first foreknown.

In Summary,
God foreknew individuals and chose to save them. These individuals and only these individuals were then predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus. Only those individuals who were predestined are called by God to salvation. Nobody who was not previously predestined is called. Only those individuals who are called by God to salvation will be justified and every single person who is called by God will be justified. Only those who are justified will be glorified.

Think of it this way in terms of numbers:
Let's say for this example that 100 people are foreknown by God in the sense of Romans 8:29.
Of these 100 people, 100 of them are predestined.
Of these 100 people, 100 of them are called.
Of these 100 people, 100 of them are justified.
Of these 100 people, 100 of them are glorified.

Now, the scripture also speaks of a universal calling in scripture. We are commanded in the Great Commission to go into the world and tell everyone about the gospel. The gospel call is given to all men. Of those who hear this gospel call from us humans, some may respond to Salvation, some may reject. The simple fact that one person may reject this 'calling' puts Romans 8:29-30 under suspicion, does it not?

So either the word of God is in error, or there are two different callings mentioned in scripture: an external gospel call given by humans and an internal call to salvation given by God himself.

Are these two calls at odds with one another? No, for God uses the external call to give the internal call.



How convenient for us. And how depressingly final. That means that no one can be prayed into the body of Christ. And it means that the words in Scripture, 'many are called, but few are chosen' are a lie.

Yes, I know God knew me from before the beginning of time. He knew everyone before the beginnning of time. He knew who would choose Him, and who would not.

But God did not decide for us. He prepared us. He woos us. He allows us the yes or no choice, and how hard we work to please Him. After the yes or no, He works with us to get us ready to rule and reign with Christ. How we do on earth determines our rank and responsibilities in Heaven. Or are you going to say God has foreordained that too?

But you are basically saying that God is a spiritual rapist, on a major power trip. With your viewpoint, I might as well twiddle my thumbs until death. After all, what I think or do doesn't count, right?

I believe in Christ and follow Him, but it was never anything I had any right to choose. God chose for me. I don't count to God. I am an automaton, and nothing more. God doesn't want my love and trust, only my grudging obedience.

Please, ask for enlightenment from the Holy Spirit. God really does care what we decide, and only then takes over again. But we can still damn ourselves. We need only curse the Holy Spirit.

Think about it. You may want a pre-planned destiny. I don't. I want the option of surprise, and the enjoyment of God's continuous adaption to our fits and starts here on earth. And I think God would be bored to death without choosing not to focus on the end result.

If God can forgive our sins, and forget them completely, can He not also choose not to know the end result except in a general way, the same way that I know that I will die if the Rapture doesn't come before hand?

Yours is a convenient belief for those that don't want to have to please God for salvation by choosing Christ. In fact, you are already so perfected that God chose you, and wouldn't let you go, no matter what you do.

I greatly fear your conscience is seared to your own imperfections, because you admit of none. God chose you. To you, that is enough.

God chose me too, But I chose Him in return. I am obsessed with Him as I ever was with my first love at 13. I love Him more and more each day, and try to show it.

You don't speak of love. You speak of entitlement. How incredibly sad for God to have chosen you, for He evidently receives nothing but token obedience and affection, praise without meaning, worship without value. After all, you are one of the chosen ones.


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/2/24 9:48Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
How convenient for us. And how depressingly final. That means that no one can be prayed into the body of Christ. And it means that the words in Scripture, 'many are called, but few are chosen' are a lie.



Romans 8:30 says that all who are called are also justified. Matthew 22:14 says that many are called, but few are chosen. Is this an inconsistency? On the surface it appears to be, but even though the same word is used (Called), we are discussing two different events. In Matthew the Call is the gospel call made by the servants of the king. In Romans we see the Call is a unique call unto salvation made by God.

Here is another example:
1 Corinthians 1:22-24, “For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.”

Three types of people are mentioned in these verses: Jews, Gentiles, and the Called. The Jews demand signs because they do not believe the gospel. Greeks seeks wisdom and they do not find it in the gospel. The Called—containing both Jews and Gentiles—believe and know that Christ is the Son of God. All heard the gospel (External Call) but only some believed (Internal Call).

Quote:
Yes, I know God knew me from before the beginning of time. He knew everyone before the beginnning of time.



God does know all things, but we must be very careful how we use the word KNEW. God has knowledge of all people, but he does not KNOW everyone relationally.
In Matthew 7:22-24 Jesus says, “On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.' Jesus said, ‘I never knew you.’ He doesn’t say I knew you but I stopped.

Quote:
He knew who would choose Him, and who would not. But God did not decide for us. He prepared us. He woos us. He allows us the yes or no choice, and how hard we work to please Him.



He did know who would respond in faith, but this is not the basis for our salvation. Ephesians 1:11 says, “In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,” Notice what this verse does say and what it does not say. It does say that God works all things according to the counsel of His will. It does not say that God works all things according to the decisions men make. That is a big difference.
1 John 4:19 says, “We love because he first loved us.” In John 17:6 Jesus says, “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.” In John 17:9 Jesus says, “I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.” He is speaking of his disciples but he is also speaking of all disciples. John 17:20-21 says, “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.” Scripture is clear that it is God who initiates and chooses.

Quote:
After the yes or no, He works with us to get us ready to rule and reign with Christ. How we do on earth determines our rank and responsibilities in Heaven. Or are you going to say God has foreordained that too?



God chooses those whom he will but he does not work for us. He has told us that we are responsible and must do good works. Ephesians 2:10 says, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”

Quote:
But you are basically saying that God is a spiritual rapist, on a major power trip. With your viewpoint, I might as well twiddle my thumbs until death. After all, what I think or do doesn't count, right? I believe in Christ and follow Him, but it was never anything I had any right to choose. God chose for me. I don't count to God. I am an automaton, and nothing more. God doesn't want my love and trust, only my grudging obedience.



Earlier you said that we must work hard to please him. Do you not understand that our works are not the basis of our justification (past, present, or future)? This reminds me of something roaringlamb said earlier in this discussion:
Quote:
“I have struggled, and still do (alot), simply accepting that Christ has fulfilled the requirements of the Law, and He is the Perfect One, yet God sees me "in Him". God loves me because of Christ. I fear many have fallen under the ideology that they must continue on in morals of their own making to somehow present this before God, but does that not put Christ and His work aside, and create a "justification" by works?


I fear that you have stepped into this area of a works based justification. I personally work for Christ because I love him. He gave his life for me and he has chosen me, not based upon anything I have done but simply because of his mercy and grace. I do not work to please him…I already please him. I work because I love him. Simple as that. I don’t care about any rewards in heaven other than I will be with Christ. I don’t want any crowns or mansions, just give me Christ!

Quote:
Please, ask for enlightenment from the Holy Spirit. God really does care what we decide, and only then takes over again. But we can still damn ourselves. We need only curse the Holy Spirit.



So God is nervously pacing the halls of heaven begging and wishing that someone would come to a saving knowledge of himself? God is powerless to save someone even though he desires that all men come to a knowledge of the truth? If he is not powerless, then does he choose not to save even thought he desires all men be saved? Is God nervous after someone chooses him? Is he afraid that someone might curse the Holy Spirit and then he would lose them forever?

I am afraid that this is not Biblical. This however is Biblical:
John 6:38-40, “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Quote:
Think about it. You may want a pre-planned destiny. I don't. I want the option of surprise, and the enjoyment of God's continuous adaption to our fits and starts here on earth. And I think God would be bored to death without choosing not to focus on the end result.



You may want to try Open Theism. It is a heresy but it closely resembles what you “want”. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Theism

Quote:
If God can forgive our sins, and forget them completely, can He not also choose not to know the end result except in a general way, the same way that I know that I will die if the Rapture doesn't come before hand?



There is no limit to God’s knowledge.
Psalm 147:5 “Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure.”
Ezekiel 11:5, “And the Spirit of the LORD fell upon me, and he said to me, "Say, Thus says the LORD: So you think, O house of Israel. For I know the things that come into your mind.”
Acts 15:17-18 “That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.”
Romans 11:33-36, “Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! "For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?" "Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?" For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
Hebrews 4:13, “And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.”

Quote:
Yours is a convenient belief for those that don't want to have to please God for salvation by choosing Christ. In fact, you are already so perfected that God chose you, and wouldn't let you go, no matter what you do.



On the contrary, it is humbling to think that God chose me for salvation. I have no room to boast except in God. I did nothing to earn my salvation. I simply became aware of God and responded as I desired to respond—in affirmation. You see, you have room to boast if you theology is true. You say that you chose God, but what about those who do not choose God? Are they not as smart as you are? Are they not as wise? Are you better than them? If God draws all men equally to himself, then there must be something special about you to respond as others do not…

Quote:
I greatly fear your conscience is seared to your own imperfections, because you admit of none. God chose you. To you, that is enough.



I fear you do not know me well at all. I am a man who struggles daily. I am a man who is saved by grace and has a loving heavenly father to help me through my struggles. I rest peaceably in the security of Christ, but I strive daily to honor him in my life because I love him and desire to serve him. I serve him because of who He is, not because of what I can gain. Help me Lord to always serve you with a humble spirit!

Quote:
God chose me too, But I chose Him in return. I am obsessed with Him as I ever was with my first love at 13. I love Him more and more each day, and try to show it.



Great! I am thankful that you are a child of God. I encourage you to continue to serve him and love him more and more each day.

Quote:
You don't speak of love. You speak of entitlement. How incredibly sad for God to have chosen you, for He evidently receives nothing but token obedience and affection, praise without meaning, worship without value. After all, you are one of the chosen ones.



UniqueWebRev I encourage you to pray over these words you have written. You are making an assumption about another Christian. You know very little about my relationship with Christ. You are accusing me of ‘token obedience and affection, praise without meaning, and worship without value.’
Pray over those words you spoke and may God forgive you of your slander. I love God and desire to honor him every day. God knows that and my conscience is clear.

Now, would you please respond to the substance of my post on Romans 8:29-30 instead of launching into a diatribe about myself and my relationship with God.

 2007/2/24 11:35Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3703
Ca.

 Re:

I am a Christian not a Calvinist. I believe what scripture says, not man. I have a teacher, it is the Holy Spirit and He only teaches me what the Christ in me wants Him to teach. All things are revealed and truth is of God, Christ Himself has been birthed in me. Just like my mother and dad, I had no choice in my birth. Just like God I had no choice in being birthed again. All I could do was believe after it happened. Galatians 1:15-17 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by His grace, To reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

Paul did not choose Christ, he would have killed Him if he could, just like His followers. Who met Paul on the road? Who meets us in our road, doing and walking our own way? We can only believe the one that Adam chose. We cannot believe unless God intervenes, He did at the Cross and even then we cannot believe unless we are convicted by the Holy Spirit and even then all we can do is believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the only one that can take our conviction and give us the faith to believe.

Who are we the clay to tell the Potter that it is our choice, our works, our freedom, our, our, our anything to be saved. It is Christ, The Holy Spirit, and God the Father, who has saved us. Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John: The same for Paul. The same for you and I. This is all we can do. Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; This is what God does: Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

In Christ by the birthing Seed of my Father.
Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/2/24 12:34Profile
roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Brothers Jay and Christinyou,
Excellent words in defense of the glorious Gospel of Jesus.
Jay~ The bill is on its way ;-)


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patrick heaviside

 2007/2/24 13:47Profile
valentyn
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Joined: 2007/2/14
Posts: 2


 Re:

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

This passage is not talking about salvation, but repentance. Do I trust in the Lord Jesus as my Savior? Since I am, then I have not fallen from the saving grace of God through faith in the Lord Jesus.

An example of one who tasted of the heavenly gift and then turned from repentance would have been the ruler of Luke 18:18ff. He did not lose his salvation for he never had it. Tasting something is not necessarily the same as consuming it. On rare occasion I have tasted something that I did not eat. Jesus’ call to this man to follow Him was distasteful to the man. He turned not to Jesus as at first, but turned away from the Lord. Here we see God's call through the Lord Jesus and man’s responsibility before God to live by faith in the Son of God. He heard the call and then decided to reject that call.

Was there some wonderful personal merit in me that saved me from my sin? Of course not, I was saved by faith in the precious blood of the Lord Jesus and His finished work upon the cross of Calvary for my sin. Have I reached continual perfection as a Christian in this present life? No, I have not and neither has anyone else other than the Lord Jesus.

I am simply one 28 years ago who was saved by faith in God’s saving grace in Chicago. God has kept me saved through this journey. Now at 65 years of age and much closer to being with our Lord Jesus, my trust and faith remains the same in all that Jesus did for me at the cross of Calvary. Hebrews 7:25 says the Lord Jesus at this hour on the right hand of the Father and is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

From my 28 years of Bible study I have learned what God begins by His grace will end in His glory. On that great and glorious day when I am absent from this body through death I will at that moment be present with the Lord.

1 Peter 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 2007/2/24 14:44Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

I just wanted to throw something out there to look at.
For a moment forget the names of Theological beliefs ie Calvinism or Arminianism and let us logically look at justification.
Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
I post these verses to ask the question who initiated the relationship between Abraham and God? We would say God of course.

Next question, what work did Abraham do that justified him before God? Of course from the verses quoted Abraham "believed God" and this was accounted to him for righteousness. Now why is only Abraham called, and why is only he justified though there were many thousands of people in the world around him?

So if Abraham is called, and justified by God alone not by any works he had done does this not illustrate what Romans 8 is saying?
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30 Moreover [b]whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.[/b]

If Abraham had anything "worthy" of justification in himself does he not have something to boast of?


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patrick heaviside

 2007/2/24 15:51Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3703
Ca.

 Re:

Amen, Roaringlamb

Quote: "Next question, what work did Abraham do that justified him before God? Of course from the verses quoted Abraham "believed God" and this was accounted to him for righteousness. Now why is only Abraham called, and why is only he justified though there were many thousands of people in the world around him?"

Yes, Who gave Abraham something to believe? It was not what Abraham did, it was what God did that made him righteous in believing God. God accounted righteousness in Abraham, Just like Christ is made our wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption. Nothing on our part except to believe what God has revealed in us by the Son. Are you accounted or Made by birthing?

I know this is a lot of scripture to read at one time but it is all here. Nobody can change it, I don't care who you are.

1 Corinthians 1:17-31 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Unto us who are saved, whose power saves us?

Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Who is the Wisdom of God, and the Power of God unto salvation?

For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

You choose? That kind of wisdom is destroyed.
How are we saved? Not by my might but by His. How are we chosen? In God's wisdom, understanding and prudence, not ours.

hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

Man's highest capacity to choose only gets him the bare foolishness of God, which if you can find any foolishness in God then you choose.

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

What makes man's puny measure of faith that all man has think he can choose God or even harder, Jesus Christ as the Son of God?

God has put away and made void that measure of faith and made the faith of the Son of God the only thing that will save us.

1 Corinthians 1:28-29 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Who's Faith? Not mine. Galatians 2:16-20 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Don't be fooled by the new versions of the bible and change the faith of Christ to the Faith in Christ. It is neither, the Greek simply means the Faith Christ Jesus or the Faith Christ or Faith Son of God. It is the Faith Christ in which we believe unto salvation.

Col 2:20, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

Made in Christ and Christ Made in us. Only believe and that is given to us.

But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Who do we glory in? Who we are chosen in. Who is chose before the foundation of the world to be in us?

Ephesians 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

In The Good Pleasure of His Will, In Christ:

Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/2/24 17:53Profile
staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1429


 Re:

Hi Just one thing to do with reading scripture:when it was written it wasnt devided up into chapter and verse.
So the origins of the these verses go back to hebrews 3 or earlier even; not the start of hebrews 6.
Dont look at these verses as if you were a calvanist or not a calvanist look at them in context of the book of hebrews.Co back to the origins of the conversation.
So to take the verse out of context of what went earlier,I think we miss out somewhat.
To summarise these chapters:
Heb 3:The writer starts talking about being partakers of the heavenly calling,about Moses and The hardening of heart of that generation and why they didnt enter his rest.The writer then gives the advice:
[color=FF0000]Hbr 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.[/color]and says at the end of Heb3[color=FF0000]Hbr 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?[/color]
[color=FF0000]Hbr 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.[/color]The start of Heb 4 Continues about entering into rest[color=FF0000]Hbr 4:1 ¶ Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left [us] of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.[/color]
The next verse is interesting because it tells us why The Generation didnt enter rest it was because of faith.
[color=FF0000]Hbr 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it].[/color]The next verse explains that we who believe do enter his rest
[color=FF0000]Hbr 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.[/color]
The rest of the chapter stays on the theme of rest and unbelief and then turns its attention towards Jesus the Great High Priest and this continues right through Heb 5 and at the end of 5 he begins to say to them that you should be teachers not partakers in baby food but meat ie.they hadnt matured and this continued into the start of heb6

[color=CC0000]Hbr 6:1 ¶ Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,[/color]
[color=FF0000]Hbr 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.[/color]
The prior chapters before heb6 are the writer describing again the baby food (paraphrase)
Then we encounter chap6 verse 4-6
Which could mean that he was explaining to reader how absurd and slow you are to think you could loose your salvation.(basically of course you cant loose your salvation, how many times do I have to tell you)
The reason I say this is because just after that he explains about the bearing of good fruit and thorns and then he says in
[color=CC0000]Hbr 6:9 ¶ But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.[/color]
Basically the good fruit are accompanying your salvation so put behind your worries about losing your salvation the fruits are following,you must be genuinely saved.
Some great preachers believe you can loose salvation, some believe you cannot.
Either way I think Heb 6.4-6 is about salvation assurance rather than loosing salvation.
To Finish 1.Read the prior chapters before and after a verse and 2. remember when this was written their were no breaks between chapters one read into another (you'll miss out sometimes because of this)
Rgds staff

 2007/2/24 20:26Profile





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