SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Hebrews 6:4-6 - What Does It Mean?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 Next Page )
PosterThread
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
I do not teach that everyone who come to God is one of the chosen. Scripture clearly does not teach that. For example see the rich young ruler. What I do teach is that all who persevere to the end is one of the chosen. Big difference and I think you might actually agree with that.



I am confused then by what you believe, at what point do you believe justification takes place? And how would you know who the ones who have been justified are? As they all must persevere until the end. So unless I am wrong, you could never know. And you could only hope that you yourself will always endure.

Quote:
Honestly, I believe you have missed the point of Paul's words. When he says that nothing will separate us from God, he means nothing.



Well, I must say this point is a difficult one to argue for me, but I do note that it says nothing will seperate us from the Love of God, and God loves the whole world. Even though he hates sin, he still loves mankind. I know it is talking about those who are saved, so I'm not sure where to go with this one.

I realize this is a weak argument at best, and I cannot think of anything about it to say right now, I must meditate on this portion of our discussion more thouroughly.

Quote:
To answer this I must be told which verse you are using because it is absurd to ask this question with Romans 12:3 in mind.



Well, yes that is the verse I was referring to, but why would it be absurd to use that? It does state that God has given each a measure of faith.

If men did not have faith, how could they believe?

Let me show you something from Hebrews to clarify my point.

[b]Hebrews 4:1-2

1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. [/b]

It says that the gospel was preched to them, but not being mixed with faith, it did not profit them.

First point, A man must have faith to believe the gospel.

Now, either God gives the faith at the moment of preaching, or man already has been given it from his creation to the present.

In either case, if God chooses specific people to give the faith to, and not others, [b]then he has created certain men without faith so that they can be eternally punished.[/b] That would be the whole point of their creation.

A few questions:

Who preached the gospel to them?

If it was Christ who preached unto them, why did He not give them faith to believe? (seeing as how it would be a pointless thing for Him to preach if He wasn't going to give them faith.)

It would appear that each man has a responsibility to respond to the message preached, and mix what he hears with his faith, and believe.

You see, I do not draw the conclusion only from Romans 12:3, it is from other instances which show men must all have faith, [b]or our God created some to simply go to hell. He did not give them the same opportunity as the ones to whom faith was given.[/b]

Quote:
Yes. All who are Internally called are chosen.



This is what I was referring to, but I thought that that verse was one kind of calling, not two different ones. Are you drawing your conclusion from a greek interpretation or am I missing something?

Are you saying that God does not internally call everyone? And if so, does that not make Him a God who created certain men simply to torment them?

Quote:
They are chosen because they have the 'wedding garment'. The wedding garment is a symbol of the blood of Christ that has cleansed the sinner. Without the wedding garment you cannot participate in the wedding feast. How did the person get the wedding garment? It was a gift! But not all received the wedding garment because they were not chosen.



But that's not what the parable says, it simply says that the man came in without wearing the wedding garment, he had not put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and been covered by His blood. [b]That man was called, but refused, because he did not accept Christ's atoning sacrifice.[/b]

Quote:
Do you agree that Romans 8:30 says that all who are called are justified?



Yes, I do.

But before you continue this part of the conversation, I just want to clear up in scripture where it says that there are two kinds of callings, internal and external. Because I cannot seem to find anywhere where that is the case. Then I will be ready for your next question based off of my answer.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/21 10:45Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Adam had the faith to believe the devil and his wife. That faith killed us all. So yes all have been given a measure of faith, but to be saved it must be a faith that turns us from darkness to light. No one can come to the Father except through Jesus Christ. No one can believe in, the belief in Jesus Christ, except the Father bring him by the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Who revealed it to Peter? It takes quickened Faith to believe unto salvation. That is the only way anyone is saved. Not by works lest any man should boast. It takes the Faith of God to believe unto salvation. Then The Faith of Jesus Christ is our life.

No person created or birthed has the Faith of God, except Jesus Christ and He is the only One we can get it from by being born again, it takes the quickening by the Holy Spirit to become born again by believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and it is He birthed in us that changes our nature from our father the devil into the glorious nature of God the Son.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Who's Faith? This is the mystery of Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Who's working in us?

Colossians 3:1-4 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Where is our Life?

Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Who's Faith have we not denied?

Not my faith but His.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/2/21 13:54Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
I am confused then by what you believe, at what point do you believe justification takes place?



Justification occurred at Calvary.
Colossians 2:12-15 says, "buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it."

The death of Christ did not only make salvation possible but it actually secured salvation for all who would be saved.

Quote:
And how would you know who the ones who have been justified are? As they all must persevere until the end. So unless I am wrong, you could never know. And you could only hope that you yourself will always endure.



God has provided many ways to determine if someone is a true Christian. 1 John is almost devoted primarily to that. Also, you will recognize a Christian by their fruit. What it boils down to is that we are not to judge others but we are to hold others accountable and encourage/edify them in their walk with God.


Quote:
You see, I do not draw the conclusion only from Romans 12:3, it is from other instances which show men must all have faith, or our God created some to simply go to hell. He did not give them the same opportunity as the ones to whom faith was given.



This is the classic objection against Reformed theology. Many object to the notion that God created some people simply to go to hell and that he is unjust in not giving the same opportunity to all men. Romans 9 addresses this very idea in great detail. I know that some feel that Romans 9 only deals with the Jews but that is just not true. Romans 9 gives us a window into God's Election and calling to salvation.

Quote:
Are you saying that God does not internally call everyone?



Yes. If God internally called everyone then all would be saved. Romans 8:30 says that all who are called are justified.

Quote:
And if so, does that not make Him a God who created certain men simply to torment them?



Paul answered this objection in Romans 9:14-18. He begins by stating the objection: What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? to which he replies: "By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Quote:
But that's not what the parable says, it simply says that the man came in without wearing the wedding garment, he had not put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and been covered by His blood. That man was called, but refused, because he did not accept Christ's atoning sacrifice.



Compare your statement in bold to Romans 8:30.
"And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

How can you affirm that all who are called are justified and then affirm that someone can refuse the saving call of God?

 2007/2/22 9:48Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
Justification occurred at Calvary.Colossians 2:12-15 says, "buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it."

The death of Christ did not only make salvation possible but it actually secured salvation for all who would be saved.



What do you do then with this verse in Romans which says that salvation comes by confession?

[b]Romans 10:8-10

8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.[/b]


Ok, so then you don't believe man has any free will concerning his salvation?

If God created some for heaven, and some for hell, that means man has no choice on that one issue, correct?

Quote:
How can you affirm that all who are called are justified and then affirm that someone can refuse the saving call of God?



Hold on one second, before I answer this, I really do want to know where the internal/external calling comes from. And how you know in scripture when it refers to one or the other.

Then I will absolutely answer this question.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/22 11:28Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
What do you do then with this verse in Romans which says that salvation comes by confession?



Justification occurs at Calvary. Salvation occurs at the moment of regeneration when a person responds to God in Faith.

Quote:
Ok, so then you don't believe man has any free will concerning his salvation?



Man has a will that is free and bound. Man's will is free from external coercion in that nothing can externally force a person to act against their will. Man's will is bound to it's desires and understanding.
When God regenerates a person, he changes their understanding and desires by making them a new creation. None of this is done against a person's will.

Quote:
If God created some for heaven, and some for hell, that means man has no choice on that one issue, correct?



According to the Bible, man is held responsible for all his actions and God is sovereign in salvation. Think about the story of Joseph and his brothers.

Genesis 50
15When Joseph's brothers saw that their father was dead, they said, "It may be that Joseph will hate us and pay us back for all the evil that we did to him." 16So they sent a message to Joseph, saying, "Your father gave this command before he died, 17'Say to Joseph, Please forgive the transgression of your brothers and their sin, because they did evil to you.' And now, please forgive the transgression of the servants of the God of your father." Joseph wept when they spoke to him. 18His brothers also came and fell down before him and said, "Behold, we are your servants." 19But Joseph said to them, "Do not fear, for am I in the place of God? 20As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today. 21So do not fear; I will provide for you and your little ones." Thus he comforted them and spoke kindly to them.

God holds the brothers accountable for selling Joseph into slavery, but Joseph also said it was ordained by God. Did God ordain sin? No. Did God make the brothers sin? No.

Man has a choice and man chooses not to obey God. God is sovereign in salvation. God is good and just in all his does. All of these are Biblical and true. It is just in our finite minds that we don't think it is all true.

EDIT Forgot to address this:
Quote:
Hold on one second, before I answer this, I really do want to know where the internal/external calling comes from. And how you know in scripture when it refers to one or the other.



The external calling is the preaching of the gospel. It is a universal calling that is commanded by Jesus. This external calling is irresistible because (as we all know) not all who hear the gospel with their ears become Christians.

The internal calling is the calling of God himself upon a sinner to bring them to salvation. This internal calling is mentioned in Romans 8:29-30. This internal calling is irresistible because all who are called are justified.

Now, I hope you can answer my question:
How can you affirm that all who are called are justified and then affirm that someone can refuse the saving call of God?

 2007/2/22 12:09Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
Justification occurs at Calvary. Salvation occurs at the moment of regeneration when a person responds to God in Faith.



According to the scriptures, the lamb was slain at the foundation of the earth. So then when did justification take place?

Was it at the foundation, or not?

Quote:
Man has a will that is free and bound. Man's will is free from external coercion in that nothing can externally force a person to act against their will. Man's will is bound to it's desires and understanding.



From what I understand(correct me if I'm wrong) you teach that men are so in rebellion against God, that even if they were presented the opportunity of salvation, they would reject it outright.

[b]So then how does God change man's understanding without doing it against his will?[/b]
--------------------------------------------------


So then do you believe that man has no choice in his salvation?

And do you believe that God created people simply to send them to hell without giving them the same opportunity as the "elect"? (i.e. Inward calling)


Quote:
The external calling is the preaching of the gospel. It is a universal calling that is commanded by Jesus. This external calling is irresistible because (as we all know) not all who hear the gospel with their ears become Christians.

The internal calling is the calling of God himself upon a sinner to bring them to salvation. This internal calling is mentioned in Romans 8:29-30. This internal calling is irresistible because all who are called are justified.

Now, I hope you can answer my question:
How can you affirm that all who are called are justified and then affirm that someone can refuse the saving call of God?



I'm sorry, but I cannot find proof of this in scripture, can you please give me scripture that shows both inward, and external callings, and then also how you know whether in any given scripture it refers to inward or external calling.

I am finding this difficult to understand, because I can find no apparent means of determining whether in a scripture it is an external or an internal calling.

Let me emphasize that I need exact scriptures on this question, as it is confusing me.
--------------------------------------------------


I do intend to answer your question, but I cannot properly explain myself until the above question is answered.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/22 13:49Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Ben,

I offered scriptural proof of internal calling in Romans 8:29-30.



 2007/2/23 8:59Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14315&forum=36#110732]Earlier post on Free Will[/url]

Free Will is both Free and in Bondage. What do I mean by saying that? Am I not contradicting myself? No. Allow me to explain.

Free Will is Free externally. A person's will is free because it is not controlled by outside influences. People have wills that are Free. This is universal and this is the aspect of Free Will that non-Calvinists only speak of in these discussions.

Free Will is Free externally but is also in Bondage internally. Free Will is in bondage because it is a slave to a person's desires and understanding. Free Will is in bondage internally because no one chooses anything against their desires and understanding.

Example: A lost person is a slave to sin and an enemy of God. They make Free Will choices based on those desires and their understanding of God. They do not know God and this lack of understanding keeps them from God. They are spiritually dead and an object of wrath.

Objection: What about a person who is walking on the street and is robbed at gunpoint. Is this not a violation of Free Will because the person does not desire to lose his wallet and an external force is making him do something against his will? No, this is not a violation of Free Will. Notice that two choices were presented to the person: Die or give up your wallet. The person made a choice to give up his wallet rather than die. He was presented options and he made a choice based on his desires and understanding.

So, I said all that to say this:
It is God who changes our desires and understanding of who He really is. He does not change our Will but instead changes what it is bound to. This is why people 'choose' Christ. They now desire Christ and have a greater understanding of who he is. They see him differently and gladly run to Him. It is God doing this, through Grace.

It is faulty logic to assume that since God chooses, free will cannot exist.

 2007/2/23 9:11Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
I offered scriptural proof of internal calling in Romans 8:29-30.



What I am confused about is how you come to the conclusion that what it is mentioning is an inward calling rather than an outward calling.

When I read that passage of scripture, all I see is the word "calling". And it does not say anywhere there whether it is internal, or external.

I just want some scripture to back it up where it is clear, because when I read that verse, it looks to me like it could be either or. And that you may be drawing your interpretation of it from some theologian rather than the scripture.

Hope that explains what I mean better.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/23 11:02Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Romans 8:29-30
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

Quote:

When I read that passage of scripture, all I see is the word "calling". And it does not say anywhere there whether it is internal, or external.



Is it an internal calling or an external calling?

Here is what the scripture says:
- All who are foreknown are predestined.
- All who are predestined are called.
- All who are called are justified.
- All who are justified are glorified.

We can gather from these verses the following:
- Nobody is glorified unless they are first justified.
- Nobody is justified unless they are first called.
- Nobody is called unless they are first predestined.
- Nobody is predestined unless they are first foreknown.

In Summary,
God foreknew individuals and chose to save them. These individuals and only these individuals were then predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus. Only those individuals who were predestined are called by God to salvation. Nobody who was not previously predestined is called. Only those individuals who are called by God to salvation will be justified and every single person who is called by God will be justified. Only those who are justified will be glorified.

Think of it this way in terms of numbers:
Let's say for this example that 100 people are foreknown by God in the sense of Romans 8:29.
Of these 100 people, 100 of them are predestined.
Of these 100 people, 100 of them are called.
Of these 100 people, 100 of them are justified.
Of these 100 people, 100 of them are glorified.

Now, the scripture also speaks of a universal calling in scripture. We are commanded in the Great Commission to go into the world and tell everyone about the gospel. The gospel call is given to all men. Of those who hear this gospel call from us humans, some may respond to Salvation, some may reject. The simple fact that one person may reject this 'calling' puts Romans 8:29-30 under suspicion, does it not?

So either the word of God is in error, or there are two different callings mentioned in scripture: an external gospel call given by humans and an internal call to salvation given by God himself.

Are these two calls at odds with one another? No, for God uses the external call to give the internal call.

 2007/2/23 11:50Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy