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JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

JaySaved wrote:

Quote:
Ben, the unpardonable sin cannot be made by Christians. This is absurd.



Ben wrote:
Quote:
Tell me why it is mentioned, and who it is mentioned to?



John Macarthur can do a better job than I can [url=http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/1301-B-8.htm]here.[/url]

 2007/2/16 16:32Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
God does not save men against their wills, and His grace is completely resistable, elsewise there would be none in hell except the devil and his angels.



When your eyes were opened to see Christ, could you refuse His beauty, and His majesty, and His love? Or did you repent, and put faith in Him?


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/2/16 16:35Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
Until you answer my questions about how you know that you are saved, then I cannot answer this question.



Romans 5:1-5
"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us."

First I have peace with God through Christ.
Secondly, I know that God is faithful to help me in my sufferings to produce hope.
Thirdly, I have God's love in my heart by the Holy Spirit.
Fourthly, I am disciplined by God when I sin. 1 Corinthians 11:32, "...when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world." God loves me enough to correct me as a Father would.

Hebrews 12:5-10 says, "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives." It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness."

Lastly, because I notice 'good fruit' in my life. Luke 6:43-45, "For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit, for each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thornbushes, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush. The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks."

In fact the entire book of 1 John gives me ways to know that I am a Christian so that I do not have to doubt. 1 John 5:13 says, "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life."

Now, my question that I haven't found an answer to yet:
"How can a person who has believed and placed their faith in Christ, completely and utter rebel against Christ and no longer believe in him?"

Is it sin? Is it lack of faith?
Romans 8:35-39 says nothing can seperate us from Christ.

"Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written, "For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

In all seriousness and earnestness how can one hold the view that salvation can be lost in spite of the fact that countless scriptures tell us that God will keep us secure?

 2007/2/16 16:48Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
God does not save men against their wills, and His grace is completely resistable, elsewise there would be none in hell except the devil and his angels.



If I may add to what roaringlamb said:

You are right, God does not save men against their will. I have never seen a man walk come to salvation by saying, 'I don't want to, but God is forcing me.' No, all true converts run to the Savior because they see their sinfulness and God's hatred of it.

Man's will is free yet bound. It is free from external forces but bound to it's own desires and understanding. When God regenerates a person, this is not done against their will. God's regeneration changes a person's desires and changes a person's understanding of God so that the person willingly runs to Christ.

As to his grace being resistible, we must understand that their is a grace that is given to all men (Light, Rain, laughter)and there is Saving grace that is given to those who God has chosen.

1 Corinthians 1:21-24
21For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Notice the different reactions between those who are called and those who are not?

 2007/2/16 16:54Profile
pastorfrin
Member



Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


 Re: What does this mean

The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
This should not be that hard to see. Stop trying to make your points and look at HIS WORD.

Psalm 119:89
For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven.




Ezekiel 18:20-32
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. [21] But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. [22] All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. [23] Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
[24] But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
[25] Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? [26] When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. [27] Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. [28] Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. [29] Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? [30] Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
[31] Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? [32] For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

1 John 2:1-6
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: [2] And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. [3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. [6] He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1 John 3:1-7
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. [2] Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. [3] And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. [4] Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. [5] And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. [6] Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. [7] Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.


1 John 3:23-24
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. [24] And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

John 7:18
He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.


All Glory be to Him, for HE alone is Worthy

pastorfrin



 2007/2/16 17:56Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3699
Ca.

 Re:

If I am birthed by a father and mother, did I have any say in the life giving seed being planted in the womb? I had no idea I would be birthed. The same goes for the Seed of Christ.
God places the Seed of Christ in the believer, which is a picture of the function of birth of a human being. God is not an abortionist, that is why He allows millions to be killed to show that a Loving God could not do what man can do.

I don't understand this free will that every body always talks about. Just what is free will and how does it become manifest.

What is the Holy Spirits function. Jhn 16:8 And when He is come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Reprove the world, why? John 16:8-11 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Who is judged? "The Prince of this world. Satan.

What? What happened to our judgment? We must be born again our we die, Body, Soul and Spirit.

Who does the birthing and whose Seed is placed in the one that believes and is convicted of sin that The Holy Spirit has come for. Here it is, our judgment, what judgment? If you eat of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil you will surly die. We are convicted of this by the Holy Spirit. "The soul that sins shall surly die."

Now the Holy Spirit tells us that the one who believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God, will be righteous and be saved.

Yes, I believe. All else is up to God, it is His Seed and we have nothing to do with it. I am now a son of God by the Son of God and His Seed born again in me. I cannot ever say God is not my Father, else I would be a liar. I had nothing to do with it. He is my Heavenly Father and Christ is my new life, and on top of that He is my brother by birth and legal adoption, just to make sure it cannot be taken away.

Even the prodigal son who did all the running he possible could, never forgot his birthing father and when he ate with pigs he remembered and returned to his Father. That could not be done away with no matter how long or how far he ran. His Father was still His Father.

Our Heavenly Father is much much more and we can never get away from this ever present fact.

If you don't believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God, then you don't have to worry about eternal security, you are none of His.

In Christ, all of His: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/2/16 20:11Profile
SDE
Member



Joined: 2007/2/1
Posts: 55
Arizona

 Re:

I am sorry. I know that I am new around these parts, but discussions like this are rarely profitable for edification. The brother originally posted his question because he is concerned about his salvation and is troubled. (Please see the Prayer Request thread). I see that he hasn't been back since the debate heated up.

I just feel bad that it has turned into this. :cry:


_________________
Sandra

 2007/2/16 21:08Profile









 Re:

Quote:

SDE wrote:
I am sorry. I know that I am new around these parts, but discussions like this are rarely profitable for edification. The brother originally posted his question because he is concerned about his salvation and is troubled. (Please see the Prayer Request thread). I see that he hasn't been back since the debate heated up.

I just feel bad that it has turned into this. :cry:

[b] Me too. Its the Word of God we need, not theological points proved. I'm still learning not to argue but just to speak only what the Lord gives.

That's what Jesus did, but I keep speaking out of my own will instead of His, and arguing the toss about things in a way that is not of Him.

Obviously I'm not the only one with this problem, but this was a convicting word all the same...

Jeannette

[/b]

 2007/2/18 10:41
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
John Macarthur can do a better job than I can here.



And still the question is unanswered.

Is it mentioned to the unbeliever so that he can really realize his damned state? I think according to your belief, that is the only plausible explanation I can see.
--------------------------------------------------

Quote:
When your eyes were opened to see Christ, could you refuse His beauty, and His majesty, and His love? Or did you repent, and put faith in Him?



I came to Christ because I was afraid of hell, I knew the consequences for the life I had led, and I was fearful of the judgement to come. The only answer I knew was Christ, and I went to Him in hopes that I might find mercy.

Yes He led me there, yes He drew me with His Spirit. But He did not ordain me to do so, He allowed me to do so. I could have just as easily made one more mistake and had a life of imprisonment. I did not come to Him because I was one of the lucky chosen ones. I came to Him as any man has the option to.

My choice. His leading.
That is a big difference from what you believe.
--------------------------------------------------

(In Reference to your response about knowing you are saved)

How do you know that you are not a tear, growing along side of the wheat? According to the parable, they are so similar that even the angels don't know for sure which is which.

You see, it is such a wonderful thing to teach that everyone who comes to God is one of the chosen, and has eternal security unshakeable by anything. But when you do, you preach man's gospel, and not God's.

What is being failed to realize here is that Christ was the sacrifice lamb for the sins of the whole world. And as such, he would not have wasted His own blood on me and women whom He had chosen for hell. You say He did not choose them for hell, that is flawed logic. By not choosing them for heaven, He chose them for hell.

For example, there are two baseball teams, team heaven, and team hell. There will be ten people on each team, there is a group of twenty people standing around. God says, ok, you ten are on team heaven, and you other ten...um...just go your natural way, uninfluenced by me. That is an absurd scenario, and completely unlike our God.
--------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Now, my question that I haven't found an answer to yet:"How can a person who has believed and placed their faith in Christ, completely and utter rebel against Christ and no longer believe in him?"



As long as you believe that a man has no control over his life, you will never find the answer to this question. When you realize that God created men to respond to Him, and not be controlled by Him. Then you will be able to know the answer.

Did you notice that in Romans 8, the only thing Paul does not mention, is the individual?

Why is that?

Because Paul knows that an individual can choose his own destiny at any moment by surrender, or by refusal.

It asks what shall seperate us from the love of Christ. This verse cannot be understood, if you believe that God only loves certain people. If you realize from reading many scriptures, John 3:16...and many others as well. He does not love only a chosen few, He loves the entire world.

Now when a person chooses to come into a relationship with Him, does His love for that person suddenly grow? Or does His love remain constant, as it has from the foundation of the world and before?

Did you notice, that Paul does not say that we cannot be seperated, rather he ask a question for the sake of encouragement.
Second, all of the listed things that he questions as being able to seperate them, are all outward things that have nothing to do with a man's heart before God.

A man has not been stripped of his free will simply by accepting God's grace. All he has done is accept it, and just as he has done so, he may also refuse it.

I say again it is by choosing to walk in utter rebellion against what you know is right.

Quote:
In all seriousness and earnestness how can one hold the view that salvation can be lost in spite of the fact that countless scriptures tell us that God will keep us secure?



God can only keep those secure who are in constant surrender to His will. If we choose our own will, then it is obvious we are not His friends, because we will not keep His commands. And He will say depart from me, I never knew you.

Have you ever become someone's friend, and then at some point in the relationship you decide not to be that persons friend anymore? Perish the thought! But I have scarcely met anyone that has not had this happen.

Now would you say that you were never their friend to begin with? Or did you refuse to continue on in the relationship?

It is the same with you and God. Just because you became friends, does not mean that you cannot bow out of the relationship.

What happens to the free will that you say we possess? Does God just overide it, rewrite our DNA, and brainwash us?

[b]Luke 9:62
And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.[/b]

Notice, the man put his hand to the plough.

It does not say: No man who is looking at the plough, and looking back...

You see the man was already engaged in the work of the kingdom. And then decides to look back at the world.

After he has made a decision for Christ, he then changes his mind, and longs for what he had before. So he is dubbed unfit.

--------------------------------------------------
Let me ask you a question, why does God give a measure of faith to all men?

Why would He implant faith in men who are already selected for hell?

Have you ever read the scripture that says this:

[b]Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.[/b]

I thought that according to your belief, that all who are called are chosen? I believe that is what was implied in your latest post is it not?

Now I have some questions:

Who are the many?

Who are the few?

Why are they chosen? (in context with matthew 22)
--------------------------------------------------

Now for the sake of our discussion, if we could each do one post, with a line by line answer of the others views, I believe we could have a much more fulfilling discussion. That is far more exacting than it has been so far.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/19 10:42Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
You see, it is such a wonderful thing to teach that everyone who comes to God is one of the chosen, and has eternal security unshakeable by anything. But when you do, you preach man's gospel, and not God's.



I do not teach that everyone who come to God is one of the chosen. Scripture clearly does not teach that. For example see the rich young ruler. What I do teach is that all who persevere to the end is one of the chosen. Big difference and I think you might actually agree with that.


Quote:
Did you notice that in Romans 8, the only thing Paul does not mention, is the individual?



I find this amusing. I did not know that the individual is not found in the following passage?
Romans 8:38-39, "For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Honestly, I believe you have missed the point of Paul's words. When he says that nothing will separate us from God, he means nothing.


Quote:
Let me ask you a question, why does God give a measure of faith to all men?



What passage are you referring to:
Is it Romans 12:3?
"For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned."

If so, then you must know that the subjects who receive the faith are Christians. As it says in verses 4 and 5, "For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another."


Quote:
Why would He implant faith in men who are already selected for hell?


To answer this I must be told which verse you are using because it is absurd to ask this question with Romans 12:3 in mind.

Quote:
Have you ever read the scripture that says this:

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

I thought that according to your belief, that all who are called are chosen? I believe that is what was implied in your latest post is it not?



Yes. All who are Internally called are chosen.

Quote:
Now I have some questions:

Who are the many?



Those who hear the gospel proclaimed. This is referred to as the External Call

Quote:
Who are the few?



Those who are chosen by God. This is referred to as the Internal Call

Quote:
Why are they chosen? (in context with Matthew 22)



They are chosen because they have the 'wedding garment'. The wedding garment is a symbol of the blood of Christ that has cleansed the sinner. Without the wedding garment you cannot participate in the wedding feast. How did the person get the wedding garment? It was a gift! But not all received the wedding garment because they were not chosen.

You are attempting to try to prove that individuals can be called to salvation without being chosen. But to prove that point would be to not catch me in a falsehood, but to catch Scripture itself in a falsehood. For Romans 8:30 says that "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Do you agree that Romans 8:30 says that all who are called are justified?


 2007/2/20 19:26Profile





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