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BenWilliams
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Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Ok Jay, since we cleared up the issue of context, I am moving back to where are discussion left off. The last thing you had said was this:

Quote:
Here are some verses that should make internal and external calling more clear:

1 Corinthians 1:22-23
"For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."

Three types of people are mentioned:
- Jews
- Gentiles
- The Internally Called

We are able to discern that the 'called' is an internal calling because the Jews and Gentiles who reject the gospel are not referred to as being 'called'.

In the above verses the Jews and Gentiles hear the external calling of the gospel.
The Jews reply: "We need a sign to believe."
The Gentiles reply: "This is foolishness"
The Internally Called reply: "This is the power of God and the wisdom of God"

All three heard the external call, but only those who heard the internal call (from among the Jews and Gentiles) responded in faith.


--------------------------------------------------


To start with, the verses you quoted are taken out of the context that they are written in. Paul is not addressing election, nor is he talking about the called. He is teaching about the wisdom of God in using preaching as the means of exposing the gospel. Let's take a further look:

[b][color=CC0000]
I Corinthians 1:1-31

1Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

3Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

4I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

5That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;

6Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

7So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

8Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

10Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

11For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

12Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

13Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

15Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

16And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

17For Christ sent me not to baptize, [u]but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.[/u]

19For it is written, [u]I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20Where is the wise? where is the scribe?[/u] where is the disputer of this world? [u]hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?[/u]

21[u]For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.[/u]

22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24[u]But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29That no flesh should glory in his presence.[/u]

30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.[/color][/b]
--------------------------------------------------
The first thing I want to say is that Paul uses the words "called" and "saved" interchangeably throughout this whole passage.

The most common meaning of the word "called" in this passage of scripture according to strong's is:

[b]1) called, invited (to a banquet)

a) invited (by God in the proclamation of the Gospel) to obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom through Christ

b) called to (the discharge of) some office

1) divinely selected and appointed[/b]

As you see, the primary definition of the word called there is that of an inviting, a preaching of the gospel. The secondary meaning is that of what you believe. So we can gather that the most probable meaning is that of the first definition. A general call or invite. And then only if that did not make sense, would we move to the secondary meaning of the word to find out the other option.

We can see here the meaning of the word "saved" as referenced by strong's.

[b]1) to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction

a) one (from injury or peril)


1) to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health

1) to preserve one who is in danger of destruction, to save or rescue

b) to save in the technical biblical sense

1) negatively

a) to deliver from the penalties of the Messianic judgment

b) to save from the evils which obstruct the reception of the Messianic deliverance[/b]

So we can see by the definition that Paul is obviously talking about salvation. He is addressing believers, so it is apparent what he is discussing.

When you cross reference the two words to each other with their most common or obvious meaning, Paul is using them to describe those that have been invited to be saved, and then to those who are now saved. This is why the verse about salvation occurs later in the passage, and not at the beginning.

Paul is not discussing the issue of predestination, being elected by an immutable will, nor is he speaking about this as a cross reference to another passage. He is making a very plain statement about the wisdom of God in using preaching as the means for people to be saved.

Note verse 26, Paul says: [b][color=CC0000]26For ye see your calling, brethren, [u]how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble[/u], [i]are called[/i]:[/color][/b]

First note, the words "are called" do not have a meaning, they were added by the translators in an attempt to make it make sense. It already made sense however without their mistake.

Pauls do you see your "calling" which that word means:

[b]1) a calling, calling to

2) a call, invitation

a) to a feast

b) of the divine invitation to embrace salvation of God[/b]

So brethren, you see your divine invitation, how there are not many wise or noble. (then we go to the next verse) It says because God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to confound the wise.

God wants people with Spiritual hunger to respond to the gospel, not people who are so full of their own intellect.

--------------------------------------------------

[b]Ok, so this passage was fun to open up and disect, but it spoke nothing of internal or external calling. There was no teaching on it. No reference of it when its meanings are understood. [u]So I am still wanting to find where the scripture teaches us about an internal calling or an external calling, and how they work.[/u][/b]

Sorry this was so long, but they usually are when you go into context and word meanings.


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Benjamin Williams

 2007/3/2 15:30Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

I am reading this and I must respond to something right away. You wrote:

Quote:
As you see, the primary definition of the word called there is that of an inviting, a preaching of the gospel. The secondary meaning is that of what you believe. So we can gather that the most probable meaning is that of the first definition. A general call or invite. And then only if that did not make sense, would we move to the secondary meaning of the word to find out the other option.


(Emphasis mine)

Are you saying that all who physically hear the gospel respond by saying 'Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God'? Because that is how the 'called' respond in these verses.

 2007/3/2 15:44Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
To start with, the verses you quoted are taken out of the context that they are written in. Paul is not addressing election, nor is he talking about the called. He is teaching about the wisdom of God in using preaching as the means of exposing the gospel.



Ben, the same preaching is given to the Jews, the Gentiles and the Called. The preaching is foolishness to those who are perishing (Jews and Gentiles who are not called but hear the preaching) but it is not foolishness to those who are called (of the Jews and Gentiles). You are mingling the preaching of the gospel with the call of the gospel.

 2007/3/2 16:08Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3703
Ca.

 Re:

1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful , by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord .

Strong's Greek Dictionary
2564. kaleo called;
Search for G2564 in KJVSL
kalew kaleo kal-eh'-o
akin to the base of 2753; to "call" (properly, aloud, but used in a variety of applications, directly or otherwise):--bid, call (forth), (whose, whose sur-)name (was (called)).

See Greek 2753

1 Corinthians 1:24 But unto them which are called , both Jews and Greeks , Christ the power of God , and the wisdom of God .

Strong's Greek Dictionary
2822. kletos called;
Search for G2822 in KJVSL
klhtoV kletos klay-tos'
from the same as 2821; invited, i.e. appointed, or (specially), a saint:--called.

Php 1:6: "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you, will also perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." Ye were called. The word "called" here does not refer merely to an invitation or an offer of life, but to the effectual influence which had been put forth; which had inclined them to embrace the gospel. Ro 9:12. See Mr 2:17; Lu 5:32; Ga 1:6; 5:8,13; Eph 1:4; Col 3:16. In this sense the word often occurs in the Scriptures, and is designed to denote a power, or influence, that goes forth with the external invitation, and that makes it effectual. That power is the agency of the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament , that by means of death , for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament , they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance .

Again, called;
Strong's Greek Dictionary
2564. kaleo
Search for G2564 in KJVSL
kalew kaleo kal-eh'-o
akin to the base of 2753; to "call" (properly, aloud, but used in a variety of applications, directly or otherwise):--bid, call (forth), (whose, whose sur-)name (was (called)).

Unless you are called you cannot answer the Phone, that is the Holy Spirit. How can you believe unless the Holy Spirit called and gives revelation of Christ in you the Hope of Glory?

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/3/3 1:08Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: BenWilliams If a Calvinist, make it plain, 2/26/07 9:17

Yes, God did choose some to be saved as a gift to Jesus for dying in our place. Those not prayed into grace in the Holy Spirit are stuck with those whose eyes are shut, and ears are stopped up, in hell, except where God chooses to have mercy and compassion. Perhaps it is His mercy and compassion that any can be prayed into the Body of Christ at all.

[color=993300]KJV Isaiah 49:1. Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The Lord hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
2. And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a Polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
3. And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
4. Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God.
5. And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.
6. And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
7. Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
8. Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
9. That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.
10. They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.
11. And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted.
12. Behold, these shall come from far: and, lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim.
13. Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the Lord hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.
14. But Zion said, The Lord hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me.
15. Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.
16. Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.
17. Thy children shall make haste; thy destroyers and they that made thee waste shall go forth of thee.
18. Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, and come to thee. As I live, saith the Lord, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them on thee, as a bride doeth.
19. For thy waste and thy desolate places, and the land of thy destruction, shall even now be too narrow by reason of the inhabitants, and they that swallowed thee up shall be far away.
20. The children which thou shalt have, after thou hast lost the other, shall say again in thine ears, The place is too strait for me: give place to me that I may dwell.
21. Then shalt thou say in thine heart, Who hath begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive, and removing to and fro? and who hath brought up these? behold, I was left alone; these, where had they been?
22. Thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.
23. And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the Lord: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.
24. Shall the prey be taken from the mighty, or the lawful captive delivered?
25. But thus saith the Lord, Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away, and the prey of the terrible shall be delivered: for I will contend with him that contendeth with thee, and I will save thy children.
26. And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the Lord am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
[/color]

Sorry, I'm not a Calvinist, or an Arminian, and don't know any other categories. I just know there is a place where we say yes, or no to God. The rest leading up to it is His work, and the following after the work of the Holy Spirit.

Blessings,


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Forrest Anderson

 2007/3/3 8:32Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: JaySaved wrote

Quote:

JaySaved wrote:
Quote:
How convenient for us. And how depressingly final. That means that no one can be prayed into the body of Christ. And it means that the words in Scripture, 'many are called, but few are chosen' are a lie.



Romans 8:30 says that all who are called are also justified. Matthew 22:14 says that many are called, but few are chosen. Is this an inconsistency? On the surface it appears to be, but even though the same word is used (Called), we are discussing two different events. In Matthew the Call is the gospel call made by the servants of the king. In Romans we see the Call is a unique call unto salvation made by God.

Here is another example:
1 Corinthians 1:22-24, “For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.”

Three types of people are mentioned in these verses: Jews, Gentiles, and the Called. The Jews demand signs because they do not believe the gospel. Greeks seeks wisdom and they do not find it in the gospel. The Called—containing both Jews and Gentiles—believe and know that Christ is the Son of God. All heard the gospel (External Call) but only some believed (Internal Call).

Quote:
Yes, I know God knew me from before the beginning of time. He knew everyone before the beginnning of time.



God does know all things, but we must be very careful how we use the word KNEW. God has knowledge of all people, but he does not KNOW everyone relationally.
In Matthew 7:22-24 Jesus says, “On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.' Jesus said, ‘I never knew you.’ He doesn’t say I knew you but I stopped.

Quote:
He knew who would choose Him, and who would not. But God did not decide for us. He prepared us. He woos us. He allows us the yes or no choice, and how hard we work to please Him.



He did know who would respond in faith, but this is not the basis for our salvation. Ephesians 1:11 says, “In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,” Notice what this verse does say and what it does not say. It does say that God works all things according to the counsel of His will. It does not say that God works all things according to the decisions men make. That is a big difference.
1 John 4:19 says, “We love because he first loved us.” In John 17:6 Jesus says, “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.” In John 17:9 Jesus says, “I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.” He is speaking of his disciples but he is also speaking of all disciples. John 17:20-21 says, “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.” Scripture is clear that it is God who initiates and chooses.

Quote:
After the yes or no, He works with us to get us ready to rule and reign with Christ. How we do on earth determines our rank and responsibilities in Heaven. Or are you going to say God has foreordained that too?



God chooses those whom he will but he does not work for us. He has told us that we are responsible and must do good works. Ephesians 2:10 says, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”

Quote:
But you are basically saying that God is a spiritual rapist, on a major power trip. With your viewpoint, I might as well twiddle my thumbs until death. After all, what I think or do doesn't count, right? I believe in Christ and follow Him, but it was never anything I had any right to choose. God chose for me. I don't count to God. I am an automaton, and nothing more. God doesn't want my love and trust, only my grudging obedience.



Earlier you said that we must work hard to please him. Do you not understand that our works are not the basis of our justification (past, present, or future)? This reminds me of something roaringlamb said earlier in this discussion:
Quote:
“I have struggled, and still do (alot), simply accepting that Christ has fulfilled the requirements of the Law, and He is the Perfect One, yet God sees me "in Him". God loves me because of Christ. I fear many have fallen under the ideology that they must continue on in morals of their own making to somehow present this before God, but does that not put Christ and His work aside, and create a "justification" by works?


I fear that you have stepped into this area of a works based justification. I personally work for Christ because I love him. He gave his life for me and he has chosen me, not based upon anything I have done but simply because of his mercy and grace. I do not work to please him…I already please him. I work because I love him. Simple as that. I don’t care about any rewards in heaven other than I will be with Christ. I don’t want any crowns or mansions, just give me Christ!

Quote:
Please, ask for enlightenment from the Holy Spirit. God really does care what we decide, and only then takes over again. But we can still damn ourselves. We need only curse the Holy Spirit.



So God is nervously pacing the halls of heaven begging and wishing that someone would come to a saving knowledge of himself? God is powerless to save someone even though he desires that all men come to a knowledge of the truth? If he is not powerless, then does he choose not to save even thought he desires all men be saved? Is God nervous after someone chooses him? Is he afraid that someone might curse the Holy Spirit and then he would lose them forever?

I am afraid that this is not Biblical. This however is Biblical:
John 6:38-40, “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Quote:
Think about it. You may want a pre-planned destiny. I don't. I want the option of surprise, and the enjoyment of God's continuous adaption to our fits and starts here on earth. And I think God would be bored to death without choosing not to focus on the end result.



You may want to try Open Theism. It is a heresy but it closely resembles what you “want”. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Theism

Quote:
If God can forgive our sins, and forget them completely, can He not also choose not to know the end result except in a general way, the same way that I know that I will die if the Rapture doesn't come before hand?



There is no limit to God’s knowledge.
Psalm 147:5 “Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure.”
Ezekiel 11:5, “And the Spirit of the LORD fell upon me, and he said to me, "Say, Thus says the LORD: So you think, O house of Israel. For I know the things that come into your mind.”
Acts 15:17-18 “That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.”
Romans 11:33-36, “Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! "For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?" "Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?" For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
Hebrews 4:13, “And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.”

Quote:
Yours is a convenient belief for those that don't want to have to please God for salvation by choosing Christ. In fact, you are already so perfected that God chose you, and wouldn't let you go, no matter what you do.



On the contrary, it is humbling to think that God chose me for salvation. I have no room to boast except in God. I did nothing to earn my salvation. I simply became aware of God and responded as I desired to respond—in affirmation. You see, you have room to boast if you theology is true. You say that you chose God, but what about those who do not choose God? Are they not as smart as you are? Are they not as wise? Are you better than them? If God draws all men equally to himself, then there must be something special about you to respond as others do not…

Quote:
I greatly fear your conscience is seared to your own imperfections, because you admit of none. God chose you. To you, that is enough.



I fear you do not know me well at all. I am a man who struggles daily. I am a man who is saved by grace and has a loving heavenly father to help me through my struggles. I rest peaceably in the security of Christ, but I strive daily to honor him in my life because I love him and desire to serve him. I serve him because of who He is, not because of what I can gain. Help me Lord to always serve you with a humble spirit!

Quote:
God chose me too, But I chose Him in return. I am obsessed with Him as I ever was with my first love at 13. I love Him more and more each day, and try to show it.



Great! I am thankful that you are a child of God. I encourage you to continue to serve him and love him more and more each day.

Quote:
You don't speak of love. You speak of entitlement. How incredibly sad for God to have chosen you, for He evidently receives nothing but token obedience and affection, praise without meaning, worship without value. After all, you are one of the chosen ones.



UniqueWebRev I encourage you to pray over these words you have written. You are making an assumption about another Christian. You know very little about my relationship with Christ. You are accusing me of ‘token obedience and affection, praise without meaning, and worship without value.’
Pray over those words you spoke and may God forgive you of your slander. I love God and desire to honor him every day. God knows that and my conscience is clear.

Now, would you please respond to the substance of my post on Romans 8:29-30 instead of launching into a diatribe about myself and my relationship with God.



Jay,

My 'diatribe' was not about you or your relationship with God, but what you said was your means of salvation, and consequent always perfect state of salvation, for if once saved, then always saved. Or isn't that what you meant?

I speak only to the words spoken, not to the man or woman behind them, because I only know the words. Whenever I am accused of personally attacking someone, when I am going entirely by their statements, I wonder what it is that I accidentally said that struck home to cause such a violent reaction.

In this forum, I am too new to have any consistant idea of who you are. I have seen your name. I have read some of you have said that I agreed with, and some not.

I am sorry you took my reaction to your statements personally. They were not meant so.

My apologies for not knowing you, but only what you said, for it is what I based what I said upon. If you didn't mean what you said, why did you say it? But, yes, at your request, I will pray over what you consider my slander of you, and be very cautious to specify in future that I am speaking to the words spoken, not the person, for I truly have no wish to offend, merely dialogue with zest.

As to a line by line exposition on your post, with the appropriate quotes, it will have to wait until I've had some sleep, since I've been up 6 hours past my bedtime trying to get to all of the site.

Blessings,


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/3/3 9:47Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
Jay,

My 'diatribe' was not about you or your relationship with God



UniqueWebRev, the reason I felt you were responding to me personally is because you kept using the word 'You'.

Quote:
Yours is a convenient belief for those that don't want to have to please God for salvation by choosing Christ. In fact, you are already so perfected that God chose you, and wouldn't let you go, no matter what you do.



Quote:
I greatly fear your conscience is seared to your own imperfections, because you admit of none. God chose you. To you, that is enough.



Quote:
You don't speak of love. You speak of entitlement. How incredibly sad for God to have chosen you, for He evidently receives nothing but token obedience and affection, praise without meaning, worship without value. After all, you are one of the chosen ones.



I hope you can understand how I thought you were referring to me.

Quote:
I wonder what it is that I accidentally said that struck home to cause such a violent reaction.



Brother I hope that my reaction was not violent. I will reread my statements and pray over them, but I tried to express myself in love.

 2007/3/4 9:24Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3703
Ca.

 Re:

1. Who is birthed in us?

2. Who's mind do we now have?

3. How are we to renew our mind?


My answers, what are yours?

Answer: ?1. 1 Peter 1:23-25 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

A. Who is the Word of God?

Answer; a. John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.


Answer: ?2. 1Cr 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom 15:6 That ye may with one mind [and] one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Cr 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Phl 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

A. what is our responsibility?

Answer; a. To give our mind to Christ, or we have a mindless Christ born again in us.

Answer: ?3. Romans 12:1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

A. Who does the presenting? We do.
Who's body, soul, and Spirit do we present?
Ours.
Our body, Our Mind, being renewed to His
Spirit birthed in us.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

When we believe That Jesus Christ is the Son of God. We are born again. The Spirit of Christ is now our spirit. The Mind of Christ is now our mind and being renewed in the flesh to the Mind of Christ by the Holy Spirit. The Body of Christ will be ours on resurrection morning, it is now quickened to contain all that God has given us in salvation.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you.


All I can do is praise God, He has birthed His Son in me and my life is now Christ. My responsibility is to present my whole being, even by the mercies of God as a living sacrifice unto Him which is now my reasonable service.

In the service of God by His mercies in me. That is the Hope of Glory, "Christ in you".

Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Is this what we preach?

In Christ and Christ in us.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/3/4 20:47Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Jay Saved 3/4/07 6:24

Quote:

JaySaved wrote:
Quote:
Jay,

My 'diatribe' was not about you or your relationship with God



UniqueWebRev, the reason I felt you were responding to me personally is because you kept using the word 'You'.

Quote:
Yours is a convenient belief for those that don't want to have to please God for salvation by choosing Christ. In fact, you are already so perfected that God chose you, and wouldn't let you go, no matter what you do.



Quote:
I greatly fear your conscience is seared to your own imperfections, because you admit of none. God chose you. To you, that is enough.



Quote:
You don't speak of love. You speak of entitlement. How incredibly sad for God to have chosen you, for He evidently receives nothing but token obedience and affection, praise without meaning, worship without value. After all, you are one of the chosen ones.



I hope you can understand how I thought you were referring to me.

Quote:
I wonder what it is that I accidentally said that struck home to cause such a violent reaction.



Brother I hope that my reaction was not violent. I will reread my statements and pray over them, but I tried to express myself in love.



Bro,

I know nothing of you, not even your name, and only your state, Tennessee, for you speak in anonyminity. But you just used the word 'you' in speaking to me. I don't mind, nor do I ever want take a debating point as an attack, simply because someone says 'you'.

In responding in a conversation, how can I not use the word 'you' when referring to what you have said?

Is what is attributed to Jaysaved not said by that person? Must I speak in the third person when I am speaking to what you, Jaysaved, have said? If so, it will make responding difficult indeed.

Or do you feel that a quote must be rendered for every statement you make? If so, we are all going to be very longwinded, and it will take ages to respond to anyone to debate a statement with a text, and then a text for a text, adinfinitum. And even that will not really work.

For even the texts you use to support what you say is a part of what you are saying. You are writing your thoughts and opinions in debating viewpoints. When text is quoted, it is part of an argument, and used as support for the points being debated. How then can I not respond to you, even as you have responded to me?

Please, tell me how you wish to be responded to, and I will try to comply to the best of my ability.

Prayerfully,


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/3/5 1:17Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: JaySaved wrote on Freewill

Quote:

JaySaved wrote:
[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14315&forum=36#110732]Earlier post on Free Will[/url]

It is God who changes our desires and understanding of who He really is. He does not change our Will but instead changes what it is bound to. This is why people 'choose' Christ. They now desire Christ and have a greater understanding of who he is. They see him differently and gladly run to Him. It is God doing this, through Grace.

It is faulty logic to assume that since God chooses, free will cannot exist.



If God must change our desires for us to choose Jesus, then where is our free-will?

I did not have a 'desire' to ask Christ into my life. I chose Jesus for my Lord and Savior, just in the same manner I would choose to jump off a cliff, (and frankly, it felt the same to me) because I had long believed that God was. I had long understood what God was offering me, and what I would have to give in return. You called it 'works' in another post on this thread.

[color=CC3300]KJV Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.[/color]

Lucifer and his demons believe in Jesus. They don't choose to serve Him.

Sorry, but if God does more than teach and persuade, cajol, and woo, it is not my free will choice at all, but His desire, His will, and I become nothing but a puppet.

Our relationship with Jesus is a love affair. God already owns us. He can do what He likes with us. But He cannot gain our willing trust and love by force, and He wants exactly that, and the works of obedience that prove it. He want's true intimacy with us, not mere acquiescence.

Blessings,


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/3/5 3:11Profile





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