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Discussion Forum : General Topics : God Hates sinners

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JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Ben, I respect your opinions and I am not avoiding anything you have written. I just fear that my answers are not what you wish them to be.

Quote:
The Bible says that if any would believe in him, they would not perish.



I agree with this statement. The key to this is not that all may believe and not perish, but that all who believe will not perish.

Quote:
We are not discussing why people reject or receive the gospel, we are discussing whether the gospel is a lie if God has "elected" some for heaven, and some for hell.



I believe I understand your position. You are saying that if God has not chosen a person, why would he allow them to hear the message that salvation is available to all who repent and believe.

Charles Spurgeon preached a sermon on Election. Here is an excerpt of what he said:

But there are some who say, "It is hard for God to choose some and leave others." Now, I will ask you one question. Is there any of you here this morning who wishes to be holy, who wishes to be regenerate, to leave off sin and walk in holiness? "Yes, there is," says some one, "I do." Then God has elected you. But another says, "No; I don't want to be holy; I don't want to give up my lusts and my vices." Why should you grumble, then, that God has not elected you to it? For if you were elected you would not like it, according to your own confession. If God this morning had chosen you to holiness, you say you would not care for it. Do you not acknowledge that you prefer drunkenness to sobriety, dishonesty to honesty? You love this world's pleasures better than religion; then why should you grumble that God has not chosen you to religion? If you love religion, he has chosen you to it. If you desire it, he has chosen you to it. If you do not, what right have you to say that God ought to have given you what you do not wish for? Supposing I had in my hand something which you do not value, and I said I shall give it to such-and-such a person, you would have no right to grumble that I did not give to you. You could not be so foolish as to grumble that the other has got what you do not care about. According to your own confession, many of you do not want religion, do not want a new heart and a right spirit, do not want the forgiveness of sins, do not want sanctification; you do not want to be elected to these things: then why should you grumble? You count these things but as husks, and why should you complain of God who has given them to those whom he has chosen? If you believe them to be good and desire them, they are there for thee. God gives liberally to all those who desire; and first of all, he makes them desire, otherwise they never would. If you love these things, he has elected you to them, and you may have them; but if you do not, who are you that you should find fault with God, when it is your own desperate will that keeps you from loving these things—your own simple self that makes you hate them? Suppose a man in the street should say, "What a shame it is I cannot have a seat in the chapel to hear what this man has to say." And suppose he says, "I hate the preacher; I can't bear his doctrine; but still it's a shame I have not a seat." Would you expect a man to say so? No: you would at once say, "That man does not care for it. Why should he trouble himself about other people having what they value and he despises?" You do not like holiness, you do not like righteousness; if God has elected me to these things, has he hurt you by it? "Ah! but," say some, "I thought it meant that God elected some to heaven and some to hell." That is a very different matter from the gospel doctrine. He has elected men to holiness and to righteousness and through that to heaven. You must not say that he has elected them simply to heaven, and others only to hell. He has elected you to holiness, if you love holiness. If any of you love to be saved by Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ elected you to be saved. If any of you desire to have salvation, you are elected to have it, if you desire it sincerely and earnestly. But, if you don't desire it, why on earth should you be so preposterously foolish as to grumble because God gives that which you do not like to other people?

[url=http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0041.htm]C.H. Spurgeon - Election[/url]

 2007/2/14 13:27Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

So then what you are saying is this:

Man has free will

God gave man the choice of heaven or hell

The ones who want to go to heaven will "the elect"

The ones who don't want to won't "sinners"

Through God's foreknowledge, He knew who would and would not accept Him. Therefore He disperesed grace to only "the elect" and not "the sinners".

Is that your point of view, or close?


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/14 13:48Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

isent this very close to the "discussion" calvanism vs arminians?(unsure of spelling) :-P


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2007/2/14 13:56Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
So then what you are saying is this:
Man has free will



Yes. His will is free from external coercion but bound to his desires and understanding.

Quote:
God gave man the choice of heaven or hell



God created heaven and hell. From the fall of Adam all men have a sin nature and deserve hell, yet before the world began, God chose certain people according to his will alone to receive salvation.

Quote:
The ones who want to go to heaven will "the elect"



Yes. All who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.

Quote:
The ones who don't want to won't "sinners"



All who do not call upon the name of the Lord will not be saved.

Quote:
Through God's foreknowledge, He knew who would and would not accept Him. Therefore He disperesed grace to only "the elect" and not "the sinners".



God foreknew people (Romans 8:29) and then called them. Those who are foreknown make decisions based upon the inward working of God, but God does not decide who is foreknown simply according to the decisions made. The decision is not the basis of the foreknowledge, God chooses according to his will.

 2007/2/14 14:09Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

In contrast, let me try to make it clear what I believe:

God gave man free will.

God gave everyone the choice of eternal life, or eternal damnation.(Because He died for the sins of the whole world.)

God draws all men to repentance by His Spirit.

Men choose whether or not to surrender to God's Spirit.

Those who do, become the "elect" of God.

Those who do not, remain "sinners" and damned to hell.

God did not choose from the beginning who would and would not choose Him.

God did have foreknowledge of it, but that did not mean that He took no action on the ones who would refuse Him.

God had to offer it to every man genuinely, without controlling their choice. Or any preaching done to them would not be genuine. It would be more genuine to preach to the unsaved "that some of them can be saved, and some cannot. But to those that want to, here is the way."

I hope this is more clear and concise then my other posts.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/14 14:12Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Ben, I respect your belief even though I don't agree with it.

You and I both believe that salvation is by grace through faith and that Jesus is the way the truth and the life.

So even though we disagree, I hope you know that I see you as my brother in Christ and will work with you any day to glorify and honor Christ.

 2007/2/14 14:39Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Absolutely, and it was a pleasure to discuss this with you. I look forward to many more enlightening conversations with you.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/14 14:44Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Bros Ben and Jay may I commend you on your civil and loving discussuion with one another on touchy issues. It was wonderful to see it done in love and humility.
Blessings to you both


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/2/14 17:52Profile









 Re:

For God SO LOVED the world....you know the rest. ;-)

 2007/2/14 22:19





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