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roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Quote:
Hey sister Diane,

Were having a beautiful snow here in Pennsylvania right now. I have the light on outside in the dark and it's so beautiful. I couldn't help but think of he picture of snow that you posted last year and that verse from Isa. 1:18. and those white lambs I once saw. Also, the first time I heard a preacher preach from this verse.


Gary! It seems that you are “in tune”. I’ve been planning on posting here today, and was pleasantly surprised to see a comment addressed to me personally.

I do not wish to comment on the previous posts – just to say that I feel that this is an important discussion – something that needs to be sorted out. I merely share my own experience with this ‘God hate’s sinners” notion.

As I kid, I was convinced that God hated me. I was unlovable. In fact, because of it I launched my life into a life of good works. I reasoned (though unconsciously) that if I could do well – obey and please my authorities, get good grades, then surely I would be good enough for God, and he would stop hating me. But still that nagging feeling lingered: God must surely hate me.

To be honest, that very notion kept me distant from God – actually outside of his saving grace. Of course no one knew that, I could hide it. I was viewed as a very good Christian. And why not! I was a pleaser.


It took an entire uprooting of everything in my life – a journey into the pits, so to speak, to learn that God did indeed love me. You see, not until I was too sick to keep up my good efforts, did that true inner faulty belief rise to the surface of my conscience: I was convinced that God had abandoned me. I could never measure up. The hellish thing about it all was that I COULD NOT, COULD NOT do it better! I became angry at God: How DARE he expect something of me that I simply could not do. It was so unfair.

I could add a lot more here about my own personal journey through this hellish “doctrine” about God hating me, but I will merely for now give God the glory that HE rescued me from it. Man did not. In fact, I realized that humans – especially the religiously dedicated also have a difficult time accepting God’s love. Our natural being resists it.

There are many sinners out there who remain in their bondage to their sins because they are sure God hates them. I can only pray that they will not be turned away by those Christians who cannot communicate to them just how much God loves them.

No one can come to God unless they trust and believe that he loves them. And I believe that it is our calling to spread the Good News. For God so LOVED the world…..

By the way, Gary, we are again under that beautiful blanket of snow – actually have been somewhat paralysed by it – roads and schools shut for over a week.

One thing about snow, it covers the “sins” – and sometimes we do need that paralysing effect of it in order to be set free from our endless efforts. Yes, God loves us even if we are completely shut down in our own efforts. If it takes that, then glory be to God.

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2007/2/14 8:13Profile
taco
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 211


 Re:

I hate sinners too. They are so pesky.

 2007/2/14 8:26Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

In reference to all of the debate about the elect, there are a few major problems with the whole theory that God elects certain individuals to be saved.

1. We know that God cannot lie. - Therefore a God who would have us preach a gospel saying that "if you repent and believe you will be saved", Is a God who lies, because if even one person in the crowd preached to is not one of these "elect", then the message becomes a lie, and having been created by God, God would become a liar.

[b]This point is irrefutable.[/b]

2. If God has ordained even one part of a persons life, then He has ordained the entire life of the individual. There is no half way on this issue. Either God is in absolute, complete control of every aspect, and has chosen when you will and will not sin. Or He has given free will, and through His sovereignty allowed man the actuall free will that we have. You see, if God has chosen who will and will not be saved, then he is also the author of every sin we commit.

[b]Free will by definition, is freedom from any control outside of your own will.[/b]

For God to have chosen any aspect of someones life without that person choosing it of their own will, it means that He has taken man's free will away completely. It only takes one act of God controling a man for it to be a stripping of free will.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/14 9:43Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
In reference to all of the debate about the elect, there are a few major problems with the whole theory that God elects certain individuals to be saved.

1. We know that God cannot lie. - Therefore a God who would have us preach a gospel saying that "if you repent and believe you will be saved", Is a God who lies, because if even one person in the crowd preached to is not one of these "elect", then the message becomes a lie, and having been created by God, God would become a liar.

This point is irrefutable.



The phrase, ‘If you repent and believe you will be saved.’ does not contradict election. The proclamation of the gospel is universal, the salvation through the gospel is not. The only way God would be a liar in this context is if someone wanted to repent and believe, but God refused to allow them. This has never, does never, and will never happen because God cannot lie. I affirm all the ‘whosoever wills’ in the Bible.

Quote:
2. If God has ordained even one part of a persons life, then He has ordained the entire life of the individual. There is no half way on this issue. Either God is in absolute, complete control of every aspect, and has chosen when you will and will not sin. Or He has given free will, and through His sovereignty allowed man the actuall free will that we have. You see, if God has chosen who will and will not be saved, then he is also the author of every sin we commit.



God ordained that Jesus would be betrayed into the hands of sinners. Did He force anyone to sin?

Quote:
Free will by definition, is freedom from any control outside of your own will.
For God to have chosen any aspect of someones life without that person choosing it of their own will, it means that He has taken man's free will away completely. It only takes one act of God controling a man for it to be a stripping of free will.



Free Will is both free and bound. It is free from external forces but bound to internal desires and understanding. God has given us Free Will but that Free Will in its natural state is bound in our sinful nature. It is not until God regenerates us by giving us a new heart and reveals his true self to us that we are able to choose Him. None of this happens against a person's Will.

 2007/2/14 10:56Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
The phrase, ‘If you repent and believe you will be saved.’ does not contradict election. The proclamation of the gospel is universal, the salvation through the gospel is not. The only way God would be a liar in this context is if someone wanted to repent and believe, but God refused to allow them. This has never, does never, and will never happen because God cannot lie. I affirm all the ‘whosoever wills’ in the Bible.



If He has "elected" some to be saved, and some to be unsaved, then when that gospel is preached, whether the person wants to be saved or not, if they are ordained to go to hell, the gospel then is a lying gospel because if they did, they could not. The fact that they choose not to does not affect the point of contention.

Either everyone has the option to be saved, or everyone does not. If everyone does have the option, then God cannot "elect some to be saved and others not. If everyone does not have the option, then the gospel is a lie to those that do not have the option. Whether they want it or not.

Quote:
God ordained that Jesus would be betrayed into the hands of sinners. Did He force anyone to sin?



If he elected those people for hell, then yes he did. If he allowed them free will, and choice for themselves, then no he didn't.

Quote:
Free Will is both free and bound. It is free from external forces but bound to internal desires and understanding. God has given us Free Will but that Free Will in its natural state is bound in our sinful nature. It is not until God regenerates us by giving us a new heart and reveals his true self to us that we are able to choose Him. None of this happens against a person's Will.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/14 11:58Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
If He has "elected" some to be saved, and some to be unsaved, then when that gospel is preached, whether the person wants to be saved or not, if they are ordained to go to hell, the gospel then is a lying gospel because if they did, they could not. The fact that they choose not to does not affect the point of contention.



The proclamation of the gospel is the calling of sinners to God. Those who respond, respond because God in inwardly calling them. Those who reject, do so because the gospel is foolishness to them.

Consider 1 Corinthians 1

18For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

21For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Notice that the gospel is a stumbling block to the Jews and folly to the Gentiles, but to the Jews and Gentiles who are called by God it is different.

 2007/2/14 12:15Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

What does that have to do with the gospel being a lie to those "elected" for hell?

Ok, I'm going to make this really simple here, and if you can answer this question directly, it would make the point I am making ever clearer.


Ok, Suppose for one seccond that I am a mighty dictator. You live under my authority, (meaning that you are responsible to me for what you do) And I send a decleration to everyone in the kingdom that I have just built the first walmart in the kingdom, and anyone who wants to go there may do so.

Then suppose that without anyone knowing it, I post guards outside of the walmart and I tell them that if they see you, not to let you in.

Have I just lied to you in saying that you could go to walmart?

Whether walmart seems foolish to you, or even if you don't want to go there, did I tell you the truth?

The answer is no, I lied to you, I said you could go, but then I set guards in place so that you could not go to walmart.

It is the exact same thing as with the gospel.

The Bible says that if [b]any[/b] would believe in him, they would not perish.

It does not say that "when those he has chosen believe in him".

God is not a liar, and would not give us a gospel to preach that was not true. Your words sound as though you think the words preached have no meaning. That is not the case, because they are the words of God, they carry great meaning, and mean exactly what they say.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/14 12:33Profile









 Re: God hates sinners


Jay said

Quote:
The proclamation of the gospel is the calling of sinners to God. Those who respond, respond because God in inwardly calling them. Those who reject, do so because the gospel is foolishness to them.

Isn't what happened to Isaiah rather a graphic exposition of Jay's explanation ......?

(Since coming to God, I've had my own 'burning coal' experience!)


Isaiah 6:8
Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?

Then said I, Here [am] I; send me.


 2007/2/14 12:35
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

We are not discussing why people reject or receive the gospel, we are discussing whether the gospel is a lie if God has "elected" some for heaven, and some for hell.

See my mulitple posts reitterating that point further below.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/14 12:51Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
Ok, Suppose for one seccond that I am a mighty dictator. You live under my authority, (meaning that you are responsible to me for what you do) And I send a decleration to everyone in the kingdom that I have just built the first walmart in the kingdom, and anyone who wants to go there may do so.
Then suppose that without anyone knowing it, I post guards outside of the walmart and I tell them that if they see you, not to let you in.



First, this is a flawed analogy. It should read as follows:

Suppose that I am a mighty dictator. You live under my authority, (meaning that you are responsible to me for what you do) And I send a declaration to everyone in the kingdom that I have just built the first Wal-Mart in the kingdom, and whosoever comes to the Wal-Mart may enter.

I would not prohibit anyone from entering the Wal-Mart, but many would not come because they do not want to come.

The Bible gives it's own version of this in Matthew 22

The Parable of the Wedding Feast
1And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2"The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4Again he sent other servants, saying, 'Tell those who are invited, See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.' 5But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.' 10And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.

11"But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12And he said to him, 'Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless. 13Then the king said to the attendants, 'Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14For many are called, but few are chosen."

This parable tells us about the rejection of God by the Jews. God turning to the Gentiles. The universal proclamation of the gospel and only those who have been chosen are accepted.

The calling mentioned in verse 14 is the outward call of the gospel. The choosing in verse 14 is the inward call of the gospel.

 2007/2/14 13:17Profile





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