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Discussion Forum : General Topics : God Hates sinners

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PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Did God hate 'the elect' before conversion the same as he 'hated Esau?'


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Josh Parsley

 2007/2/13 16:30Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
Did God hate 'the elect' before conversion the same as he 'hated Esau?'



No, because God has mercy on the elect. God did not show this mercy to Esau. All who come to a saving knowledge of Christ have been called by God according to God's grace and mercy.

Christians are children of wrath before conversion but that wrath is never dispensed upon the Christian. God has love toward the Christian and never shows his holy hatred towards them.

Think of it this way:

John Smith was chosen by God before the foundation of the world.
Jesus Christ came and died for the sins of John Smith.
John Smith is born and by his nature is a child of wrath because of Adam's sin within him.
John Smith lives a life apart from God.
God calls John Smith to him and regenerates him.
John Smith does the works that God has prepared for him to do.

God in this example never hates John Smith even though John Smith is a sinner by nature.


 2007/2/13 16:46Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

I might also add that this plays into our discussion on whether or not a person should tell someone that God hates them.

It is not our position to say who God hates because we do not know who is being called to salvation.

I will repeat what has been said before, we are just as wrong to tell unbelievers that God hates them as we are to tell them that God loves them. We are called to share the gospel and let them respond to it.

 2007/2/13 16:49Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Is Bible is plain on who God "hates." How can you say God may or may not hate a "worker of iniquity?" Or the wrath of God may or may not rest upon one in unbelief (reguardless of whether they will in a later time)?

Does God has different degrees of "hate?"

These are just some things that make no sense to me from a calvinist perspective.


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Josh Parsley

 2007/2/13 16:57Profile
Koheleth
Member



Joined: 2005/11/10
Posts: 530
NC

 Re:

Quote:
I've often wondered that if God's love (agape) gives, than the opposite of that is selfishness or pride. God's anger isn't selfish, but many times mans anger is. This is why I wouldn't say "God hates you." People don't think of hate the way is it used to describe God. God's hate is not like man's hate. God's isn't prideful, mans almost always is.



I think better than "God hates you" which may be Biblical but misunderstood is the Scriptural quotation "God is angry with the wicked." Without an understanding of hate, people may misunderstand that God hates sinners, but I think few would misunderstand that God is angry with both the sin and the sinner. Sin makes a holy God angry! Why? Because he hates sin. It is opposed to his nature, his character, his peace, his love, his reign in a human heart. The God of the Scriptures declares himself to be a God of hate and anger as well as love and peace.

 2007/2/13 16:58Profile
roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Perhaps the bottom line is that many well meaning men with "zeal", but not so much wisdom have gone out to expedite the process of salvation.
Now the question we must all decide is this-
Is salvation monergistic ie God alone gives salvation to those who repent and believe on Christ because it is solely a work of His Spirit.

Or is salvation synergistic ie the sinner works in conjuction with God to accomplish salvation.
Please note that by salvation here I am speaking of justification as this is whatwe really should mean when asking if a person is "saved".

How you view man of course will factor into howw you view salvation. If you believe that man can do anything to help along the process, you'll probably say synergistic. If you beleive that man is utterly dead in tresspasses and sins, you will probably say monergistic.
This will help a little in our discussion :-)


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patrick heaviside

 2007/2/13 19:36Profile
BeYeDoers
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Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

JaySaved, so God does hate those who are children of wrath and are not elect? If they are elected but sinners He doesn't hate them when scripture says "these are the things that God hates"? If He doesn't elect them and they are sinners He does? hmm.

As far as what we do with this in evangelism, here's my thoughts: It's no more biblical to walk up to someone and say "God hates you" than it is to walk up to someone and say "God loves you".


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Denver McDaniel

 2007/2/13 20:39Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
As far as what we do with this in evangelism, here's my thoughts: It's no more biblical to walk up to someone and say "God hates you" than it is to walk up to someone and say "God loves you".



I agree.

 2007/2/13 21:26Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re: God Hates sinners

The wrath of God

(Thomas Boston, "Human Nature in its Fourfold State")

"The wrath of God abides on him." John 3:36

1. The wrath of God is IRRESISTIBLE, there is no standing before it; "Who can stand in Your sight, when once You are angry?" Psalm 76:7. Can the worm or the moth defend itself against him who designs to crush it? Can the worm, man, stand before an angry God? Foolish men, indeed, bid a defiance against God; but the Lord often, even in this world, opens such sluices of wrath upon them, as all their might cannot stop—they are carried away thereby, as with a flood! How much more will it be so in hell!

2. The wrath of God is INSUPPORTABLE. What a man cannot resist, he will try to endure. But who shall dwell in devouring fire? Who shall dwell with everlasting burnings? God's wrath is a weight which will sink men into the lowest hell. It is a burden which no man can endure.

3. The wrath of God is UNAVOIDABLE to those who continue impenitently, and die in their sinful course. "He who, being often reproved, hardens his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed—and that without remedy!" Proverbs 29:1. We may now flee from it, indeed, by fleeing to Jesus Christ. But those who flee from Christ, will never be able to avoid it. Where can men flee from the avenging God? Where will they find a shelter? The hills will not bear them. The mountains will be deaf to their loudest supplications, when they cry to them to "hide them from the wrath of the Lamb."

4. The wrath of God is POWERFUL and FIERCE. "Who can comprehend the power of Your anger? Your wrath is as awesome as the fear You deserve." Psalm 90:11. We are apt to fear the wrath of man more than we ought; but no man can apprehend the wrath of God to be more dreadful than it really is. The power of God's wrath can never be known to the utmost; for it is infinite, and, properly speaking, has no utmost limit. However fierce it is, either on earth or in hell, God can still carry it farther. Everything in God is most perfect in its kind; and therefore no wrath is so fierce as His. O sinner! how will you be able to endure that wrath, which will tear you in pieces, Psalm 50:22, and grind you to powder! Luke 20:18.

5. The wrath of God is PENETRATING and PIERCING wrath. It is burning wrath, and fiery indignation. There is no pain more intense than that which is caused by fire; and no fire so piercing as the fire of God's indignation, which burns unto the lowest hell, Deut. 32:22. The arrows of men's wrath can pierce flesh, blood, and bones—but cannot reach the soul. But the wrath of God will sink into the soul, and so pierce a man in the most tender part.

6. The wrath of God is CONSTANT wrath, running parallel with the man's continuance in an unregenerate state; constantly attending him from the womb to the grave. There are few days so dark—but the sun sometimes looks out from under the clouds. But the wrath of God is an abiding cloud on the objects of it; John 3:36, "The wrath of God abides on him" who believes not.

7. The wrath of God is ETERNAL. O, miserable soul! if you flee not from this wrath unto Jesus Christ; though your misery had a beginning—yet it will never have an end! Should devouring death wholly swallow you up, and forever hold you fast in the grave—it would be kind. But your body must be reunited to your immortal soul, and live again, and never die; that you may be ever-dying, in the hands of the ever-living God. Death will quench the flame of man's wrath against us, if nothing else does. But God's wrath, when it has come on the sinner for millions of ages, will still be the wrath to come! Matt. 3:7; 1 Thess. 1:10. While God is, He will pursue the quarrel.

8. However dreadful it is, and though it is eternal—yet it is most JUST wrath! It is a clear fire, without the least smoke of injustice. The sea of wrath, raging with greatest fury against the sinner, is clear as crystal. The Judge of all the earth can do no wrong. "Is God unrighteous to inflict wrath? Absolutely not! Otherwise, how will God judge the world?" Romans 3:5, 6. The Judge being infinitely just—the sentence must be righteous. Therefore, stop your mouth, O proud sinner! Still your clamor against your righteous Judge!

"Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath!"
1 Thessalonians 1:10

"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to
receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ!"
1 Thessalonians 5:9


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CHRISTIAN

 2007/2/14 4:03Profile
GaryE
Member



Joined: 2005/4/26
Posts: 376
Mifflinburg, Pennsylvania

 Re:



Hey sister Diane,

Were having a beautiful snow here in Pennsylvania right now. I have the light on outside in the dark and it's so beautiful. I couldn't help but think of he picture of snow that you posted last year and that verse from Isa. 1:18. and those white lambs I once saw. Also, the first time I heard a preacher preach from this verse.

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD. This also reminds me of this verse:

Hos 14:1 O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.

Hos 14:2 Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.

The LORD truly does hate that crimsom stain, but he sure does love that white lamb and snow. The conversation must somehow go from the crimsom and scarlet to the white lamb and the snow or there is no evangelism at all. And there is a prayer to be made.

Oh, that white snow is beautiful.

Grace, mercy, and peace
GaryE


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Gary Eckenroth

 2007/2/14 6:05Profile





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