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Discussion Forum : General Topics : God Hates sinners

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JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
Does God predestine himself?



No. God is eternal and has always existed.

Quote:
Or through his foreknowledge does He simply act?



God does not base his actions on his foreknowledge. God acts according to the counsel of his immutable will.

 2007/2/13 15:47Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

I thought you did, I just wanted to bring up the controversy of the point for the sake of clarity.

No harm intended.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/13 15:48Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
But it is not so, the vessels of wrath reffered to are the Jews remaining from the Old Covenant that had hard hearts and would not accept the gospel as true.
The vessels of mercy are both the Jews that believed, and then also the gentiles that would come to believe.

Now, this is the only time in which Paul uses the phrase "Vessels of wrath". Yet he is constantly dealing with the issues of the saved, the unsaved, spirit vs flesh, and many other topics.



Ephesians 2
1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Paul might not use the term 'Vessels of wrath' in Ephesians 2 but he does refers to all non-believers are 'Children of wrath'.

 2007/2/13 15:51Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

That is a good point, but I would ask this question on the matter:

How is His immutable will determined?

Is it just a perfect thing he has always had, or is it based off of perfect foreknowledge.

I don't know, maybe they are the same thing, or maybe it's just one of those things that is too big for me to wrap my mind around. My understanding of it comes somewhat from "Jonathan Edwards Supposistion of the Trinity" That text has put many things about the Trinity in better perspective.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/13 15:52Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

That is a good point, but I would ask this question on the matter:

How is His immutable will determined?

Is it just a perfect thing he has always had, or is it based off of perfect foreknowledge.

I don't know, maybe they are the same thing, or maybe it's just one of those things that is too big for me to wrap my mind around. My understanding of it comes somewhat from "Jonathan Edwards Supposistion of the Trinity" That text has put many things about the Trinity in better perspective.


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Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/13 15:53Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

I agree on that, I was referring specifically to the term. For the sake of the post, it was necessary to make the distinction. Being that Paul was making a distinction.


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Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/13 15:55Profile
elected
Member



Joined: 2004/11/21
Posts: 362
Tulsa OK

 Re:



Before you share the good news u have to tell the bad news....if a sinner doesnt know that he needs to be saved from sin and eternal punishment : hell; why will he come to the cross for salvation? When an sinner knows that he has offended a Holy and righteous God repentance will make sense to him.The shift from the God - centered gosple to man-centered gosple has brought emphases to our needs and God is in second plan ready to serve you.


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Redi

 2007/2/13 15:59Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
Ephesians 2
1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Paul might not use the term 'Vessels of wrath' in Ephesians 2 but he does refers to all non-believers are 'Children of wrath'.



So are the 'elect' before their conversion "children of wrath?"


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Josh Parsley

 2007/2/13 16:12Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
So are the 'elect' before their conversion "children of wrath?"



I would say yes, as the first nature is in Adam, and in Adam all die. But in Christ there is life.

There must be a new birth, so that the Spirit is made alive.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/2/13 16:22Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
So are the 'elect' before their conversion "children of wrath?"



Great question.

Are the 'Elect' children of wrath before their conversion?

Yes. The elect are all individuals who come to a saving knowledge of Christ. However, before this 'calling' occurs they are living like the rest of mankind.

The follow-up question must then become, 'Can one of the elect die before they are called?' The answer to that is found in John 10:22-30

22At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. 24So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

Also in John 6:37, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

The answer is 'No'. All whom God has given to Jesus will come and Jesus will lose none.

 2007/2/13 16:23Profile





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