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Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
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 Re:

Quote;

"I believe that Scripture teaches that Melchizedec was the pre-incarnate Christ."

Then God made two son's. One for the Old Testament and one for the New Testament. Melchizedek was not the Son of Man. Thus He could not be the Son of God, the only begotten.

Melchizedek was a Priest appointed outside of all rules and regulation and genealogies of man appointed Priestly duties. This High Priest Melchizedek was not a gentile, Jew or priest of Arron or Levitical, he was appointed by God and As Jesus would Be also birthed by God the Father, He Jesus Christ would be of the same appointment. "After the Order of Melchizedek".
"made like unto the Son of God;" but not being the Son of Man and the Son of God. Need more?
Hebrews 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils. This was a man, not the Son of God.

Hebrews 7:6-8 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises. And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better. And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

This is the reason for Melchizedek; "But he whose descent is not counted". Melchizedek is the less when it comes to Jesus Christ our Lord, Savior, and High Priest forever after the order of Melchizedek, being the Only Begotten Son of God who's blessing is so much greater that Melchizedeks, it does not even compare, "bread and wine", to the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ who is the Body of Christ believers One and Only High Priest Forever. Melchizedek does not even compare to the Lord Jesus Christ who is the King of Kings and Only Begotten Son of the Most High God, who has made us His son's by becoming our Father also by the birthing of His Son in us. Born Again of Incorruptable Seed, by His death and resurrection and His coming again in the Spirit of Christ in us.

I am no a son of God by Melchizedek. I am a son of God by Birthing of God's only begotten Son, His Seed in me. Making God My Father and Jesus Christ my Brother and Lord and Savior, by His Blood and Body given for those that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God.

The Body of Christ is The Church upon which Jesus Christ will build His Church upon this Rock, Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Melchizedek is a priest of the most High God, who would set the Priest Hood of Christ for the coming Birth of Jesus Christ and His Cross.

In Christ of the Priest Hood of Melchizedek forever, who is so much more than our High Priest, He is our Life and all that we are or ever will be. Phillip




_________________
Phillip

 2007/2/10 16:06Profile









 Re: Melchizedek - who is he?


I'd like to apologise in advance if this comment seems to be completely off the wall.

I've just re-read the references in Hebrews 6 and 7, to Melchizedek, and have much sympathy with the thought he might have been a manifestation of God.

Hebrews 7 (Young)
1 For this Melchisedek, king of Salem, priest of God Most High, who did meet Abraham turning back from the smiting of the kings, and did bless him,

2 to whom also a tenth of all did Abraham divide, (first, indeed, being interpreted, `King of righteousness,' and then also, King of Salem, which is, King of Peace,)

3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, and being made like to the Son of God, doth remain a priest continually.


Here are a few thoughts. Do they connect?

In Genesis 13, there is a reference to Bethel, but, we know that Jacob did not re-name Luz, [i]Bethel[/i] until the narrative in Genesis 28. So, I just wonder when 'Salem' actually came into existence, for it to have a 'king'?


If the first temple was built on Mount Moriah, beside Jeru'salem', are we talking about more than imagery? Wasn't it here that Abraham nearly sacrificed Isaac? Also, wasn't the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world? By whom?

And Jesus became the Prince of Peace; [i]Prince[/i], the usual title of the Son of a King.


Also, remember when three men came to visit Abram on the plains of Mamre?

Genesis 18 (Young)
1 And [u]Jehovah[/u] appeareth unto him among the oaks of Mamre, and he is sitting at the opening of the tent, about the heat of the day;

2 and he lifteth up his eyes and looketh, and lo, [u]three[/u] men standing by him, and he seeth, and runneth to meet them from the opening of the tent, and boweth himself towards the earth,

3 And he saith, `[u]My Lord[/u], if, I pray thee, I have found grace in thine eyes, do not, I pray thee, pass on from thy servant;


I marvel at the way New Covenant truth, which comes together in Christ, (Col 1:15 - 20) is spread out for us in the Old Testament, often with amazing detail and framed in its own peculiar space. In the case of Melchizedek, though, it seems the writer of Hebrews had more revelation than the writer of Genesis. Should we be surprised......? ... John 17?


 2007/2/10 16:18
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:

""If the first temple was built on Mount Moriah, beside Jeru'salem', are we talking about more than imagery? Wasn't it here that Abraham nearly sacrificed Isaac? Also, wasn't the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world? By whom?""

Answer: Israel, through the Gentiles, (Romans).

We were chosen in Christ (before) the foundation of the world, not the Lamb Slain (from) foundation of the world.


Ephesians 1:1-14 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him(((before the foundation))) of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

These words were never spoken to anyone until Jesus Christ was crucified and resurrected and returned to Paul that they might be spoken. Eph 1 is all that Christ is and ever will be. Abraham did not know these words and could not.

In Christ ((before the foundation of the world))
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:

The word "before" is not the word "from" that is in Revelations. This before is; Strong's Greek Dictionary
4253. pro
Search for G4253 in KJVSL
pro pro pro
a primary preposition; "fore", i.e. in front of, prior (figuratively, superior) to:--above, ago, before, or ever. In the comparative, it retains the same significations.

The word "From" in Revelations: Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship Him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain (((from))) the foundation of the world.
This word From is not before the foundation, but from the foundation of the world, Christ was not crucified before the foundation of the world, He was in God's plan but now crucified, since the foundation of the world.
(From) Strong's Greek Dictionary
575. apo
Search for G575 in KJVSL
apo apo apo'
a primary particle; "off," i.e. away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literal or figurative):--(X here-)after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for(-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-)on(-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.

Melchizedek could not have been the crucified Christ, as He was crucified since the foundation of the world approx 2000 years ago, so those that believe the Jesus Christ is the Son of God would be chosen in Christ, which was God's plan before the foundation of the world. Eph 1:4, before, not Rev 13:8 since or from.

Ephesians 1:22-23 And hath put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.

There is nothing more to say, Amen.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/2/10 19:57Profile
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 Re: Without genealogy

Quote:
Are there not so many who come and go, that flash upon the pages of sacred history without any record of their descent? And yet of which of them was it ever said

they had...


neither beginning of days


nor end of life



Hi Chris, think the meaning here is closer to the following;


[b]Heb 7:3 - Without father, &c.[/b]--explained by "without genealogy" (so the Greek is for "without descent); compare Heb_7:6, that is, his genealogy is not known, whereas a Levitical priest could not dispense with the proof of his descent.

[b]having neither beginning of days nor end of life[/b]--namely, history not having recorded his beginning nor end, as it has the beginning and end of Aaron. The Greek idiom expressed by "without father," &c., one whose parentage was humble or unknown. "Days" mean his time of discharging his function. So the eternity spoken of in Psa_110:4 is that of the priestly office chiefly.

[b]made like[/b]--It is not said that he was asbsolutely "like." Made like, namely, in the particulars here specified. Nothing is said in Genesis of the end of his priesthood, or of his having had in his priesthood either predecessor or successor, which, in a typical point of view, represents Christ's eternal priesthood, without beginning or end. Aaron's end is recorded; Melchisedec's not: typically significant. "The Son of God" is not said to be made like unto Melchisedec, but Melchisedec to be "made like the Son of God." When ALFORD denies that Melchisedec was made like the Son of God in respect of his priesthood, on the ground that Melchisedec was prior in time to our Lord, he forgets that Christ's eternal priesthood was an archetypal reality in God's purpose from everlasting, to which Melchisedec's priesthood was "made like" in due time. The Son of God is the more ancient, and is the archetype: compare Heb_8:5, where the heavenly things are represented as the primary archetype of the Levitical ordinances. The epithets, "without father," &c. "beginning of days, "nor end," "abideth continually," belong to Melchisedec only in respect to his priesthood, and in so far as he is the type of the Son of God, and are strictly true of Him alone. Melchisedec was, in his priesthood, "made like" Christ, as far as the imperfect type could represent the lineaments of the perfect archetype. "The portrait of a living man can be seen on the canvas, yet the man is very different from his picture." There is nothing in the account, Gen_14:18-20, to mark Melchisedec as a superhuman being: he is classed with the other kings in the chapter as a living historic personage: not as ORIGEN thought, an angel; nor as the Jews thought, Shem, son of Noah; nor as CALMET, Enoch; nor as the Melchisedekites, that he was the Holy Ghost; nor as others, the Divine Word. He was probably of Shemitic, not Canaanite origin: the last independent representative of the original Shemitic population, which had been vanquished by the Canaanites, Ham's descendants. The greatness of Abraham then lay in hopes; of Melchisedec, in present possession. Melchisedec was the highest and last representative of the Noahic covenant, as Christ was the highest and ever enduring representative of the Abrahamic. Melchisedec, like Christ, unites in himself the kingly and priestly offices, which Abraham does not. ALFORD thinks the epithets are, in some sense, strictly true of Melchisedec himself; not merely in the typical sense given above; but that he had not, as mortal men have, a beginning or end of life (?). A very improbable theory, and only to be resorted to in the last extremity, which has no place here. With Melchisedec, whose priesthood probably lasted a long period, the priesthood and worship of the true God in Canaan ceased. He was first and last king-priest there, till Christ, the antitype; and therefore his priesthood is said to last for ever, because it both lasts a long time, and lasts as long as the nature of the thing itself (namely, his life, and the continuance of God's worship in Canaan) admits. If Melchisedec were high priest for ever in a literal sense, then Christ and he would now still be high priests, and we should have two instead of one (!). THOLUCK remarks, "Melchisedec remains in so far as the type remains in the antitype, in so far as his priesthood remains in Christ." The father and mother of Melchisedec, as also his children, are not descended from Levi, as the Levitical priests (Heb_7:6) were required to be, and are not even mentioned by Moses. The wife of Aaron, Elisheba, the mother from whom the Levitical priests spring, is mentioned: as also Sarah, the original mother of the Jewish nation itself. As man, Christ had no father; as God, no mother.

Jameison, Fausset and Brown Commentary


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Mike Balog

 2007/2/10 22:55Profile
ChrisJD
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Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: a tough one...

Morning all.

Brother Mike, am finding it difficult to accept the explanations given with regard to the commentaries...


I looked through this from Jameison, Fausset and Brown and also some others, including Vincent's Word Studies and Robertson's Word Pictures. It seems as though, when it comes to this phrase in particular, this

[b]having neither beginning of days nor end of life[/b]

that no explanation is really given?

Here's what I mean:


From Jameison, Fausset and Brown

[i]history not having recorded his beginning nor end, as it has the beginning and end of Aaron[/i]




Robertson's Word Pictures


[i]He is not to be understood as a miraculous being without birth or death. Melchizedek has been made more mysterious than he is by reading into this interpretation what is not there. [/i]



Vincent's Word Pictures


[i]That is to say, history is silent concerning his birth and death.[/i]


Well, alright, but how does this explain such an amazing phrase as this [b]having neither beginning of days nor end of life[/b]. Doesn't such a phrase go [b]way beyond[/b] calling our attention to the lack of record for his birth and death? It does not say [b]there is no record[/b] for his birth, or his death. It says [b][u]having[/u] neither[/b].



At the first I had asked

"Are there not so many who come and go, that flash upon the pages of sacred history without any record of their descent?"


I decided to do a word search of the phrase [i]priest of[/i] to see if I could find anything similar and here is what I found:

In Genesis 41 we read of [b] Potipherah priest of On[/b]. I could find no record of his descent either, nor of his birth or of his death. Now it is plain that this was a man because he had offspirng :-)

Same with the next one. In Exodus we read of [b]Jethro, priest of Midian[/b] which in the same way, though I found no certain record of him, it is obvious that he was a man and had offspring also. But then look at this next one...


In Amos chapter 7 we read of [b]Amaziah the priest of Bethel[/b]. I find no record of him at all and I wonder why there was even a priest of Bethel to begin with but even here I would not suspect him to be anything other than a mortal man also.


But it was never said of any of these that they had neither beginning of days nor end of life. We wouldn't expect it to be. Even if there is no record given of them. I realise though that they don't have anything to do with establishing the change in the priesthood, but still.


In the commentary by Jameison, Fausset and Brown, they say

"There is nothing in the account, Gen_14:18-20, to mark Melchisedec as a superhuman being: he is classed with the other kings in the chapter as a living historic personage:"

Well, what about his name?

[i]...first being by interpretation [b]King of righteousness[/b], and after that also King of Salem, which is, [b]King of peace[/b][/i]

Is this not the name of God that He revealed unto Moses, saying

"I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee"

which name He says is

"The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation."

and this revelation was given to Moses when he beseeched God, saying

"shew me thy glory"

Is this not the same glory whereof we read in the record of John

"..and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

Well, is this not the name of God in this Melchisedec? Who else could be called

[b]King of righteousness[/b] and [b]King of peace[/b]

except God, and for us, God in Christ Jesus?


I suppose a mere man could have such a name. Then I consider this too though:

"Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for My name is in him."

Well, you might say, yes, but this in Hebrews is only the [i]interpretation[/i] of his name; but then I would ask, why is it interpreted at all? Why bother pointng out such things which would make us think of God Himself, at least they make me think of God? Again, I think of the words of the Lord Jesus where He said,

[b][color=660033]Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.[/color][/b]

Also, I have thought of all the times God Himself met with, or appeared unto Abraham in some form or other, in the significant and major events in his life. Does not seem unreasonable that this could be another one of those times?


Well, whatever the case, am sure we can all agree that Melchisedec gives us a wonderfull example of how the Sciprture testifies to Christ Jesus the Lord!


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/2/11 10:45Profile
rookie
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 Re:

Brother Jim asserts;

Quote:
To the author of Hebrews, what is not said about Melchizedek is just as important as what is said about him. He makes "an argument from silence."



I believe Scripture declares the opposite...

Hebrews 5:9-11

"And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, called by God as High Priest "according to the order of Melchizedek", of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing."

The author hear wishes that the Hebrew church was not dull of hearing, and because of this condition it is hard to explain the significance of our High Priest who serves "according to the order of Melchizedek."

Why does the author keep going back to Melchizedek in order to exhort and strengthen the Hebrew church?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/2/11 13:31Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Brother Jim asked:

Quote:
If Melchizedek was really Christ pre-incarnate, then what one is essentially saying is that Jesus Christ also lived on this earth as a literal king of an actual city, prior to His incarnation.



I submit that Hebrews 7:2 does not speak of the Jerusalem on earth.

Paul teaches...

Galatians 4:25-26

"for this Hagar is Mount Sianai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children--

but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all."

Then Paul points to Abraham's son Isaac in verse 28

"Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of the promise."

Melchizedec is the King of Jerusalem that is above...

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/2/11 13:40Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Brother Phillip wrote:

Quote:
This High Priest Melchizedek was not a gentile, Jew or priest of Arron or Levitical, he was appointed by God and As Jesus would Be also birthed by God the Father, He Jesus Christ would be of the same appointment. "After the Order of Melchizedek".



Why is it so important for the author who is writing to the Hebrews to point to Christ as the one who serves "according to the order of Melchizedek?

I know that Scripture teaches us that Peter used the OT to convict and convert the Jews in the book of Acts chapters 2 and 3.

Jesus used the OT to strengthen the two disciples on the way to Emmaus.

Again why does this author point to Melchizedek in order to exhort and strenghten the Hebrew church?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/2/11 13:47Profile









 Re:

Quote:

rookie wrote:
Brother Phillip wrote:

Quote:
This High Priest Melchizedek was not a gentile, Jew or priest of Arron or Levitical, he was appointed by God and As Jesus would Be also birthed by God the Father, He Jesus Christ would be of the same appointment. "After the Order of Melchizedek".



Why is it so important for the author who is writing to the Hebrews to point to Christ as the one who serves "according to the order of Melchizedek?

I know that Scripture teaches us that Peter used the OT to convict and convert the Jews in the book of Acts chapters 2 and 3.

Jesus used the OT to strengthen the two disciples on the way to Emmaus.

Again why does this author point to Melchizedek in order to exhort and strenghten the Hebrew church?

In Christ
Jeff

[b]I'm new to this thread and haven't read it all (9 pages!), so don't know if this has already been said.

I thought that the importance of Melchizedek to the Hebrew believers was because of the Judaisers, who wanted the Christians to obey the law of Moses.

Even though they had come to Christ, they were in danger of going back because of this. They were traditionally hooked on Moses' teachings and the concept of a God-given Levitical priesthood (remember King Uzziah who tried to burn incense, which only the priests were allowed to do - he was smitten with leprosy for his sin).

So they had problems accepting that the old priesthood and Law of Moses was superceded (and fulfilled) in Jesus. Especially His status as Priest, when He was not of the tribe of Levi.

So Paul uses the prophecy in Psalm 110:4, to demonstrate that Jesus does in fact have a right to be a Priest, and His priestly function is in fact greater than Aaron's; greater even than Levi, the ancestor of the priestly tribe, and Abraham himself.

Jeannette
[/b]

 2007/2/11 14:05









 Re:

Who was Melchizedek?

He was an Orphan! Without Mother or Father.

 2007/2/11 15:24





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