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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Melchizedek - who was he?

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rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Brother Jim,

Is paying a tithe an act of obligation or an act of worship?

Quote:
It says the two-fold interpretation of his names are this.



Hebrews 7:2

"...first being translated, "king of righteousness" and then king of Salem, meaning "king of peace."

What does "first being translated" mean to you according to the greek?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/2/8 19:20Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Is paying a tithe an act of obligation or an act of worship?



It's an act of worship. However, by simply paying tithes one is not worshipping the priest who receives them. For under the Old Covenant, bringing tithes to the Levitical priests did not constitute the worship of the Levitical priest. Thus, Abraham's bringing Melchizedek the tithe did not constitute the worship of Melchizedek.

Quote:

What does "first being translated" mean to you according to the greek?



This simply means "by the translation of his name." It's what his name means.


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Jimmy H

 2007/2/8 19:26Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Brother Jim wrote:

Quote:
For under the Old Covenant, bringing tithes to the Levitical priests did not constitute the worship of the Levitical priest.



First, Abraham was not under the Covenant made on Mount Sinai. Secondly, the Levitical priest were also required to pay a tithe to whom?


Does Scripture place any significance on names?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/2/8 19:34Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

First, Abraham was not under the Covenant made on Mount Sinai



That is beside the point. Such is simply an example. Priest's were mediators, acting on behalf of another person.

Quote:

Secondly, the Levitical priest were also required to pay a tithe to whom?



The tithe that the Levites received was to be tithed. They did this by taking a tithe of the tithe, and simply burning it up as a sacrifice to God.

Quote:

Does Scripture place any significance on names?



Sure. Adam means "earth." Eve means "mother of all." Abram means "exalted father." Abraham means "father of many nations." Jacob means "deceiver." etc. etc. In the Old Testament, a great deal of weight is placed on names. In Hebrew culture, generally speaking, a name signified something about the person, or held symbolic meaning. Such as when Hosea named his children to signify the judgments of God on the nation.


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Jimmy H

 2007/2/8 19:41Profile
Jimbabwean
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Joined: 2007/1/29
Posts: 17
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 Re:

Thanks guys for the challenge to use more scripture and the point raised by KingJimmy about the blessing of Abraham by Melchizedek.

In Daniel 3, we see Nebuchadnezzar calling God by the same title that Melchizedek used, and blessing Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. This, at the point in Nebuchadnezzar’s life when he was forcing people to worship an image of himself. A pagan priest-king blessing godly people.

The whole point of Hebrews is to explain the priesthood of the New Covenant. Hebrews 8:1. The Order of Melchizedek represents the Priesthood of the New Covenant, which is filled by only one priest – Jesus the Son of God / Son of Man.

Now, Jesus was ordained into this order on Resurrection Day. This is when the New Covenant began. Hebrews 5 and Acts 13, explain the term “this day” that God uttered the oath concerning Jesus’ High Priesthood.

So let’s start assuming that the Order of Melchizedek was a literal order of priests:

If Jesus was operating in this order back in Abraham’s day as Melchizedek, then why did He need to die on a cross and be raised from the dead to initiate the New Covenant, by becoming its’ High Priest? Problems!

If Melchizedek was Shem, or any other godly person, then we have two priests in the Order of Melchizedek. This means that both are eternal priests, and Shem would be at least equal to, if not superior to Jesus, because he was in the order before Jesus, and that the New Covenant has two priests. Problems!

If Melchizedek was a pagan, then we have a pagan and Jesus in the same order of priests. Problems!

So, we are forced to conclude that the order is symbolic, not literal.

If Shem (or any godly man) was a priest, then what covenant was he operating under in order to have a whole city under his priesthood? Abraham was a priest, because he offered up sacrifices, Genesis 22:13. Abraham’s priesthood was over his family, as was the case of Noah: Genesis 8:20. So, we have evidence of a head of household priesthood prior to Moses. Thus we don’t have reason to consider a citywide priesthood covenant, other than a pagan one.

Hebrews goes after the symbolism in order to establish the priesthood of Jesus within the New Covenant. Hebrews isn’t interested in resolving our discussion of the identity of Melchizedek. However, it seems apparent that one can nevertheless identify who Melchizedek isn’t, and the kind of priest that he is. He’s like Nebuchadnezzar, pagan priest king over Babylon.

I admit that it’s hard to swallow Hebrews 7:7, as you point out KingJimmy, but the Order of Melchizedek is where I end up going back to the pagan Melchizedek solution.

Once one accepts this, then names like Adonizedek, and the Jebusite history seem to add up. We also have the Babylonian tithe – the Esretu, which is the counterfeit to the Biblical agricultural tithe. So, it seems to work, although it is radical.

I'm okay with radical.
Blessings!

 2007/2/8 21:11Profile
murdog
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Joined: 2006/2/4
Posts: 352
Fort Frances, Ontario

 Re:

Stever,

You call out Ron as a person who gives new meaning to the term Carnal Christian and he needs to be born again so that he can see! Yikes, I wish I was as blind as Ron is! Did you ever read in the scriptures about treating older men as Fathers, and then there was that commandment about honouring Fathers and Mothers.

It is one thing to disagree...

Jimbabwean,

By the way, it is totally inconsistent with the scriptures to allude to the fact that Melchizedek was a money grubbing pagan who pulled one over on Abraham! We may not know alot about him, but come on!

Murray


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Murray Beninger

 2007/2/8 23:30Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Brother Jim wrote:

Quote:
They did this by taking a tithe of the tithe, and simply burning it up as a sacrifice to God.



So the Levitical priests worshiped God by offering a tithe...is this then consistent with what I said when Abraham worshipped Melchizedec by offering his tithe to him?

Please remember the Scripture where is says that the Levitical priesthood not yet in existence payed their tithes through Abraham...

What is most important to realize in this whole discussion is to find how God made promises to continue to provide for a "remnant" down through the generations starting with Able...

What kind of priesthood counld only bring about this "remnant?"

Allow yourself to find the treasure hidden in Scripture.

God Bless
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/2/9 14:41Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Brother Phillip provided this commentary...

Quote:
It is not, however, to the Messiah "to come." It does not refer to the God incarnate - to Jesus of Nazareth; but to the God of the Jews, in his capacity as their lawgiver and protector in the time of Isaiah; not to him in the capacity of an incarnate Saviour.



Thankyou for this response...However, I can only quote from Scripture the glory that is found in Christ...

Colossians 1:15-17

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist."

When one begins to see the High Priest at work in the remnant throughout the generations one will find a treasure that does not fade but increases without end.

Listen to the judgement on those of Israel who were not part of the remnant...

Isaiah 5:24

"Therefore, as the fire devours the stubble, and the flame consumes the chaff, so their root will be as rottenness, and their blossom will ascend like dust;

because they have rejected the law of the Lord of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel."

Who is the Holy One of Israel?

God Bless
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/2/9 21:10Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

The Holy One of Israel is God, who's wife Israel was. The Holy One of the Body of Christ is Jesus our Lord and Only High Priest, who only became our High Priest after the Cross. You cannot ordain a priest that is Spirit, to be a priest that becomes us. That is human in every way and also Very God also.

Hebrews 7:26-28 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Jesus Christ was ordain to become incarnate before the foundation of the world, that was at His birth by His mother Mary and His Father God.
You cannot make Melchizedek the Incarnate Christ.
Then there would be no need for His Birth, to become a perfect human being and perfect Very God. The difference in old testament salvation is God by His mercy and by their faith God saved them and will make that manifest in the Millennium by the Christ that was promised them.

We have salvation through faith, that is through the faith of a different acknowledgement of The Will of God that we should believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and we will be saved through the Faith of this Person, Jesus Christ, not by our faith in keeping the Law of God. They sought and studied the scriptures to find salvation and could not would not receive Jesus Christ as the Only Begotten Son of God, that He would become their salvation, they crucified the Prince of Peace.

Again; Mark 12:26-27 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err. God has chosen Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Moses and all those by their faith, God became the God of them living.

This is not the Christ of the New Testament.
They in the old testament were searching the scriptures and could not see Him.

This is a long read but it is the truth of the Word of God Himself, Jesus Christ who is our salvation by Grace through Faith of the Person Himself, Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 5:31-47 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true. Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth. But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. I receive not honour from men. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

How shall ye believe His Words?

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

In Christ Through Faith, His Faith.

Act 3:16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Rom 3:30 Seeing [it is] one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Rom 3:30 Seeing [it is] one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.


Not by my faith, but through His Faith. Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/2/10 0:58Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
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 Re:

This is really not so difficult to see, I think. Christ is not Melchizedek but is 'of the order of Melchizedek. His high-priesthood is Melchizedekian and not Aaronic; that is the burden of Hebrews. He is not an heriditary high priest but is a priest of an entirely different kind. He is a king-priest... the sort of priest that Melchizedek illustrates.


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Ron Bailey

 2007/2/10 4:32Profile





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