SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Melchizedek - who was he?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 Next Page )
PosterThread
Jimbabwean
Member



Joined: 2007/1/29
Posts: 17
USA

 Re:

Quote:
You wish to make the Lord Jesus typified by a mere pagan priest out for a money grab? And think that is not absurd?
Blaspheme



A charge of Blasphemy, eh? It would only be Blasphemy, if Melchizedek was Jesus. Jesus is the lamb of God. Sheep are stupid. Yet Jesus is typified by a stupid sheep. Is that blasphemous?

The question of Order..

Assume there was this literal order of priests, and we know that Jesus was/is in it. Could there be another priest? I don't think anyone would argue that? Two eternal priests?!

So when was Jesus ordained into this order then?

Hebrews 5:5 So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him, "You are my Son,today I have begotten you"; 6 as he says also in another place, "You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek."

Acts 13:32 And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers, 33this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm, "'You are my Son, today I have begotten you.' 34 And as for the fact that he raised him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he has spoken in this way, "'I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.'

We can see He was ordained as priest on resurrection day, and centuries after Abraham's day.

Because the Order of Melchizedek has to only include Jesus, then the Order must be symbolic, because Melchizedek was also a priest.

The easy answer is that Melchizedek was just a pagan priest. If he were some godly person like Shem, then Shem would be in this Order of Eternal priests.

The order is merely symbolic, because Melchizedek appears to be eternal. By the way, it cannot be Shem because we know Shem's geneology, and Hebrews tells us we don't have that for Mechizedek. Another point, we have Jesus' geneology too.

I really think the easy way out is to say Melchizedek was a pagan. The stretch comes in wondering why God would chose a pagan to represent Himself. Perhaps the answer comes in the fact, that God used murderers like Moses, David and Paul to base the Bible on. It wasn't their murders that he glorified, and it isn't Melchizedek's paganism, just what his lack of geneology and his name symbolized.

God is a big God, and He can do whatever He likes. Where does the Bible say that He cannot use a pagan as a type?

The part about God Most High..

The same expression was used by pagan Nebuchadnezar. Abraham qualified it by inserting YHWH God Most High. Thus making a point about the God referred to by the king of Sodom.

God Most High to you and I is YHWH. God Most High to a Babylonian was a pagan deity - the chief deity. The Muslims worship Allah. Does that mean we have the same God? Perhaps, but not the same religion.

Does this shed any light on your challenge of Blasphemy?

I comfort myself with the thought that Jesus was called a Blasphemer. Perhaps Jesus and I are in the dog box together then?

 2007/2/6 22:07Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Brother Ron wrote:

Quote:
There are many 'like' Christ. The Aaronic priesthood with its anointed (Christed) priest, the Mediator of the covenant, Moses.



But, how many have served according to the order of Melchizedec?

Is there not a difference, according to Scripture, between the earthly Aaronic priesthood and the priesthood of Melchizedec?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/2/6 23:12Profile









 Re:

Hi Rookie: I posted this once before, but it appears you did not read it. Let's try it again:

Stever responds (again) to Rookie:

[b][color=0000FF]It might help to explain what the word TYPE actually means:

Topics: Type

Text: occurs only once in Scripture (1 Cor. 10:11, A.V. marg.). The Greek word tupos is rendered "print" (John 20:25), "figure" (Acts 7:43; Rom. 5:14), "fashion" (Acts 7:44), "manner" (Acts 23:25), "form" (Rom. 6:17), "example" or "ensample" (1 Cor. 10:6, 11; Phil. 3:17; 1 Thess. 1:7; 2 Thess. 3:9; 1 Tim. 4:12).

IT PROPERLY MEANS A "MODEL" OR "PATTERN" OR "MOLD" into which clay or wax was pressed, that it might take the FIGURE or exact shape of the mould. The word "type" is generally used to denote A RESEMBLANCE BETWEEN SOMETHING PRESENT AND SOMETHING FUTURE, which is called the "ANTITYPE."

THE "TYPE" IS NEVER THE REAL DEAL. IT ONLY POINTS TO THE REAL THING.[/color][/b]

God bless,

Stever 8-)

P.S. You comprende?

 2007/2/7 1:55









 Re:

Jimbawean posted:

"The same expression was used by pagan Nebuchadnezar. Abraham qualified it by inserting YHWH God Most High. Thus making a point about the God referred to by the king of Sodom."
xxxxxxxxxx

Stever's response:

The Bible teaches us that Nebuchadnezzar came to a believing, saving faith in the God and Messiah of the Bible, and will be in heaven with us, forever:

Daniel, Chapter the 4 (the entire chapter):
1. Nebuchadnezzar the king, unto all people, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth; Peace be multiplied unto you. 2. I thought it good to shew the signs and wonders that the high God hath wrought toward me. 3. How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders! his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation.
4. I Nebuchadnezzar was at rest in mine house, and flourishing in my palace: 5. I saw a dream which made me afraid, and the thoughts upon my bed and the visions of my head troubled me. 6. Therefore made I a decree to bring in all the wise men of Babylon before me, that they might make known unto me the interpretation of the dream.
7. Then came in the magicians, the astrologers, the Chaldeans, and the soothsayers: and I told the dream before them; but they did not make known unto me the interpretation thereof.
8. But at the last Daniel came in before me, whose name was Belteshazzar, according to the name of my god, and in whom is the spirit of the holy gods: and before him I told the dream, saying,
9. O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in thee, and no secret troubleth thee, tell me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and the interpretation thereof. 10. Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great. 11. The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth:
12. The leaves thereof were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all: the beasts of the field had shadow under it, and the fowls of the heaven dwelt in the boughs thereof, and all flesh was fed of it. 13. I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;
14. He cried aloud, and said thus, Hew down the tree, and cut off his branches, shake off his leaves, and scatter his fruit: let the beasts get away from under it, and the fowls from his branches:
15. Nevertheless leave the stump of his roots in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts in the grass of the earth:
16. Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him. 17. This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.
18. This dream I king Nebuchadnezzar have seen. Now thou, O Belteshazzar, declare the interpretation thereof, forasmuch as all the wise men of my kingdom are not able to make known unto me the interpretation: but thou art able; for the spirit of the holy gods is in thee.
19. Then Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, was astonied for one hour, and his thoughts troubled him. The king spake, and said, Belteshazzar, let not the dream, or the interpretation thereof, trouble thee. Belteshazzar answered and said, My lord, the dream be to them that hate thee, and the interpretation thereof to thine enemies. 20. The tree that thou sawest, which grew, and was strong, whose height reached unto the heaven, and the sight thereof to all the earth; 21. Whose leaves were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all; under which the beasts of the field dwelt, and upon whose branches the fowls of the heaven had their habitation: 22. It is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong: for thy greatness is grown, and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth.
23. And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him;

24. This is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the most High, which is come upon my lord the king: 25. That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will. 26. And whereas they commanded to leave the stump of the tree roots; thy kingdom shall be sure unto thee, after that thou shalt have known that the heavens do rule. 27. Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and break off thy sins by righteousness, and thine iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor; if it may be a lengthening of thy tranquillity. 28. All this came upon the king Nebuchadnezzar.


29. At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon. 30. The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty? 31. While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.

32. And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

33. The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.

34.[b] And at the end of the days (7 years) I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation: 35. And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?[/b]
36. At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellers and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.
37. [b] Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.[/b]

God bless,

Stever :-D

 2007/2/7 2:09
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Contentious

[b]Pagan
PA'GAN, n.[/b] [L. paganus, a peasant or countryman, from pagus, a village.] A heathen; a Gentile; an idolater; one who worships false gods. This word was originally applied to the inhabitants of the country, who on the first propagation of the christian religion adhered to the worship of false gods, or refused to receive christianity, after it had been received by the inhabitants of the cities. In like manner, heather signifies an inhabitant of the heath or woods, and caffer, in Arabic, signifies the inhabitant of a hut or cottage, and one that does not receive the religion of Mohammed. Pagan is used to distinguish one from a Christian and a Mohammedan.

[b]PA'GAN[/b], a. Heathen; heathenish; Gentile; noting a person who worships false gods.

1. Pertaining to the worship of false gods.

Quote:
The part about God Most High..

The same expression was used by pagan Nebuchadnezar. Abraham qualified it by inserting YHWH God Most High. Thus making a point about the God referred to by the king of Sodom.


Quote:
God Most High to you and I is YHWH. God Most High to a Babylonian was a pagan deity - the chief deity. The Muslims worship Allah. Does that mean we have the same God? Perhaps, but not the same religion.



Gen 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

Which would also mean that the writer in describing this was also under this perceived delusion?

Gen 14:22 And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,
Gen 14:23 That I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich:

Dan 5:18 O thou king, the most high God gave Nebuchadnezzar thy father a kingdom, and majesty, and glory, and honour:

That the same expression was used by Daniel, David, even ...

Mar 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

Doesn't prove anything to your fallacious notions that you pour into the text.

Better exegesis can be found here, for those interested.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1838&forum=45&0]Melchizedek; time to sit and eat[/url]

Heb 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, [b]made[/b] an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Heb 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; [b]but made like unto the Son of God[/b]; abideth a priest continually.

What is so glaringly appalling about all this is that the whole exercise being brought to bear by the writer of Hebrews is in the [u]comparisons[/u] to Melchisdec. "After the order", being [i]made[/i], made like, similitudes and types, character descriptions. And your usage of pagan, which in the strictest sense of the word is [i]one who [u]worships false gods[/u][/i] and if that were not enough you would also have him denounced further by the other galling idea of his motivation ("making a quick buck off Abraham") is ludicrous.

Early you stated;
Quote:
Sorry to come across as arrogant! I personally found it mind bending when I first came across this question asked of me by a theologian whose PhD dissertation involved the matter.

I am grateful for the opportunity to come here and ask what appear to be mature Christians their views. Some of these subjects may be repeats, but it is helpful to ask these questions. I learn by them, and sometimes the answers previously given do not necessarily answer my particular questions.



And it is getting difficult to believe the sincerity, you seem more intent on an argument than a understanding. But it could just as well be me, am finding this all very disturbing spiritually and not for the assumptions you might think.

[i]Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec. Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.[/i] Heb 5:8-11

This applies more than you know.
Quote:
I comfort myself with the thought that Jesus was called a Blasphemer. Perhaps Jesus and I are in the dog box together then?


Vast difference between ignorance and arrogance. Will plead ignorance by way of being no scholar, the plainest sense of what was intended in scripture would never conjure up such notions that you would have us alluding Jesus to the exact opposite by way of comparison. How difficult can it truly be to see that you are now attempting a modeling of The Son of Man [i]after[/i] one who is worshiping a false god by definition and that [i]that[/i] is not [i][u]the[/u][/i] issue? Furthermore that this would not be found repulsive, diabolical, arrogant, blasphemous, heretical ... pick your own poison. You have some audacity to find any comfort whatsoever by thinking you are sharing in the same style accusations of Jesus, especially after the galling exercise of comparisons you have used to describe Him here.

Do you find this forum a mere place of frivolity? It may seem quite uncharitable of me here and difficult to be so. We know next to nothing of who you are, where you are coming from. Could but prefer it to be otherwise.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/2/7 8:34Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
The Bible teaches us that Nebuchadnezzar came to a believing, saving faith in the God and Messiah of the Bible, and will be in heaven with us, forever:


which Bible?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/2/7 10:28Profile
PCB
Member



Joined: 2006/10/11
Posts: 13


 Re:

I sat down to read my bible this morning and read:

Tts 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

I think I was being told to shut up on this one, I'll leave it to the rest of you!

Peter

 2007/2/7 11:47Profile









 Re:

:-(

Quote:

philologos wrote:
Quote:
The Bible teaches us that Nebuchadnezzar came to a believing, saving faith in the God and Messiah of the Bible, and will be in heaven with us, forever:


which Bible?


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Stever responds:

I quoted the King James Version. Maybe you would be more comfortable with the ASV (American Standard Version):

Daniel 4: 34. And at the end of the days I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me,[b][color=0000FF] AND I BLESS THE MOST HIGH, AND I PRAISED AND HONORED HIM THAT LIVETH FOR EVER; FOR HIS DOMINION IS AN EVERLASTING DOMINION, AND HIS KINGDOM FROM GENERATION TO GENERATION.
35. AND ALL THE INHABITATANTS OF THE EARTH ARE REPUTED AS NOTHING; AND HE DOETH ACCORDING TO HIS WILL IN THE ARMY OF HEAVEN, AND AMONG THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH; AND NONE CAN STAY HIS HAND, OR SAY UNTO HIM, WHAT DOEST THOU?[/color][/b]
36. At the same time mine understanding returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, my majesty and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent greatness was added unto me.
37. [b][color=0000FF] Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, PRAISE AND EXTOL AND HONOR THE KING OF HEAVEN; FOR ALL HIS WORKS ARE TRUTH, AND HIS WAYS JUSTICE; AND THOSE WHO WALK IN PRIDE HE IS ABLE TO ABASE. [/color][/b]

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

In conclusion, a saving faith has always been at the heart of salvation. Our works are nothing more than filthy rags to God Almighty.

God bless,

Stever :-D

 2007/2/7 14:05
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

It should be noted that the idea that Melchizedek was simply a local pagan priest of Jebusite stock is not an uncommon view, and many scholars these days hold to it. This is in part assumed because many pretty much would say that everybody outside of Abraham and his immediate family were pagans, especially throughout the land of Cannan and Mesopotamia in general. Some would say this is especially clear because Melchizedek uses the unusual phrase "God Most High," which according to a few commentaries I've consulted over the years, this language, if memory serves correct, especially as used in the Hebrew, looks more like something that would describe Baal, than how God's name is actually used throughout the OT.

But with that said, I disagree with the notion that Melchizedek was a pagan priest.

For in Hebrews 7, the author argues that the priesthood of Melchizedek is greater than the Levitical priesthood. He argues this on the grounds that because Melchizedek [b]blessed[/b] Abraham, in whom were the Levites, that this makes the priesthood that Christ has a greater one, because it is of the order of Melchizedek. For "without any dispute the lesser is blessed by the greater" (Heb 7:7). Therefore, if Melchizedek was a mere pagan priest, the Scriptures would not have argued that he was greater. Nor would they have seen Melchizedek having the authority to bless. For it is a Divinely ordained priest that has authority to bless. Therefore, Melchizedek could not have been a pagan.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2007/2/7 15:16Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
In conclusion, a saving faith has always been at the heart of salvation. Our works are nothing more than filthy rags to God Almighty.


which Bible says that "Nebuchadnezzar came to a believing, saving faith in the God and Messiah of the Bible"? Any version is OK.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/2/7 18:15Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy