This is a useful reference in that it speaks of people who 'prophesy' and of one who is a 'prophet'. Not everyone who prophesied was a prophet, not everyone who preached the gospel was an evangelist. It seems that some became well known for their 'gift' to such an extent that the gift characterised the man and some became 'prophets'.
Even with what I have posted previously about in the NT those who prophesy being considered prophets, I would also tend to agree with this notion. That is, the concept behind it. For the concept of "offices" in the New Testament isn't this position steeped thing like many make it out to be.
One's "office" is what one is and of themselves, and functions out of. Or as it is said, "doing" issues out of "being." It is simply their function. Like I said previously, a fish swims because it is a fish. Swimming is becoming of fish. Likewise, a prophet prophesies because they are a prophet. Prophesying is becoming of a prophet. It's simply their function. And in the NT a person's calling is identified by what they do.
Thus, if you are known for prophesying, you would be called a prophet. If you are known for teaching, you would be called a teacher. Therefor, for one to give off regular prophetic utterances would make them a prophet, because doing prophetic ministry is what they do. And for the likes of Rick Joyner who frequently are given to "prophesy," yet deny being a prophet is simply unsound. From what I have seen in the prophetic movement, people who prophesy yet deny being prophets do so to for reasons of being less accountable for what they say should they "miss one." After all, if they "miss one" you can't really hold them accountable, for they really aren't prophets!
It's an amazingly sad thing to see.
| 2007/1/14 8:18||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
| Re: Movement ...|
I pray for those in the prophetic movement
Am beating a dead horse here but, '[i]the prophetic movement[/i]' is where all this trouble began. To be honest, I do not know where the beginning of it is but to go back to and through our Christian heritage and history one would be hard pressed to find anything resembling this that we have had now for some years.
What is amazing and grievous is that first principles of [i]who we are[/i] and are supposed to [i]be[/i] are lovers of truth and of God. Authenticity. Integrity. Honesty, ought to spell us and I must again raise the very pertinent question; Where is the factual, evidential proof of the ends of all this so called 'prophesying'. It is demanded is it not? That there is some sort of nefarious idea out there that these things should not be questioned or axiomatically given the benefit of the doubt because of whatever sincerity of the man, that because of this 'movement' it is supposed to lend itself it's own credence of acceptance, that even the words coming forth most often sound quite contradictory to anything of the character of the Lord ...
I am deeply afraid that we do not know our bibles and therefore do not know Gods word and therefore do not know our God as we ought. I would very much include myself here, I cannot but keep finding my own contradictions of what I think I may have formerly grasped and yet another [i][b]Have you considered?[/b][/i] comes in. It is often why the appeal is made to those who have studied their whole life long, that [i]do[/i] have some proper understanding and experience rightly dividing the word of truth.
Biblical literacy, studying Christian history and heritage is taking a back seat to whatever pop's into our fallen heads and turned out as ... The penchant for leaning on not only our own understanding, but our fickle emotions that change constantly is just a very poor way of going about gaining wisdom and understanding. And yet it is not only rampant, but accepted!
The very witness of the Spirit has it's own prior witness given for our benefit and as a check against these sort of things taking off on their own and yet we will not appeal to it? Be more than good Bereans, doing a quick reference checking, but Bereans at heart and soul and spirit, [i]living[/i] Bereans. It is just flabbergasting that we would not drop some things like a hot iron when they come to our attention, but to save face a whole assortment of defending and explaining, a misunderstanding of grace and love, of fear of giving offense or pride in hanging on to poor argument. Where is our true humility and disregard for having to be 'right'?
[b]Let God be true[/b] and the rest of liars, but at the least can we not be as honest to admit what we do not in fact know emphatically when we do not and are often just hovering around supposition?
We must get back to that very old and dusty and tried and true method of just hard work and study. It's not very glamorous or 'instant' or easy and is quite against the grain of our modern era. It's [i]brain sweat[/i] as Chambers put it.
Let me be even more forthcoming. Think I can bog my own poor self down here not heeding to what I ought to be doing. Praying. That along with study. Having cold hard facts and mangling the effort without a proper understanding of [i]The letter killeth[/i] ... How important this all is;
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
They just cannot be divorced from each other. I am still pondering just how much [i]Thy [b]theology[/b] killeth[/i] in this respect. The things handed down as doctrines of men, good men, men of God even can be misconstrued or raised to levels never intended by those same men. But it is all subject to testing and that we would rather be 'prophets' and teachers and evangelists rather than first learners ... Actually that has it's own trap if we are to cease or bring that same divorcement into that which is continual, [i]learning[/i], that willingness to drop even long held belief's when further light dawns.
Oh what will it take to get us just more down right honest about this life and what we do and do not know ...
| 2007/1/14 9:27||Profile|
| Re: Aaron|
Firstly bartle, don't you realise that "Jimmy" is a modification of "James" (ie, "King Jimmy" = "King James")? Jimmy Humphreys isn't claiming to be royal, but is referring to a Bible translation in his handle
no i didnt realize that, my apologies to Jimmy Humphries, should you be reading this Jimmy.
I didnt like the tenor of his post, and said so.
I didnt think the Nixon/Clinton remark was complimentary, I prayed for president Nixon, I pray for President Clinton, President Bush, all our leaders, including the ones I know on a local level, and furthermore I see no complancency in Grace and Love, I see Jesus.
If one feels they must call out false prophets, so be it, but we are not unaware of "satan's scheme's.
his scheme is to get the Church backbiting and devouring itself, to get the Body of believers to enchange in the constant practice and habit of trashing those in leadership, that is Church leadership who are actually IN SIN, or percieved to be in sin.
Just recently when you were in need, (and maybe still are) of prayer, engaged in a struggle, private struggle, saints got on their knees, in their chairs, and prayed for you and your family, they, we did not heap condemnation on your head. Who knows the struggles of this man, Paul Cain?
God does, Jesus does, and as He said in John 17, Jesus is RIGHT NOW leading the most active intercessory prayer Ministry anybody could ever hope for.
If a brother has a problem with a Rick Joyner, write him a letter, pray over it, write it, send it. I do that a lot, and then let God do the work.
The Church is so fractured with endless divisions,that it's just heartbreaking. I'm not talking about getting "ecumenical", but we're losing the onus and the thrust of what Jesus prayed in the High Priestly prayer of John 17.
I'm going to tell you something, and I pray that you don't "hit the roof" (thats American slang)
I was invited by a professor of theology at a catholic university to do a panel discussion in front of 150 students on "Christians in the arts", and I'm going to do it. Imagine that, a Jew saved by Grace, a follower of Jesus who attends a pentecostal church, speaking at a catholic university.
and I'm not going to talk about the apostasy of the roman religious tradition, popery, transubstantiation, mary worship, etc etc etc. I want to talk about Jesus, and the gifting that He has given to me in the field of art, and how when I make art it is to the Glory of the Lord.
The professor when he called me was so excited that a follower of Jesus would come and speak before his students, and I told that not five blocks from where he sits I was bar-miztvahed, how not two blocks away I used to hang out at a communal home of "Jesus Freaks", when I was 15, how the Holy Ghost rang my bell in a trailer on a mountain in Southern California and led me to a small pentecostal church. I told him all this, and when i start to speak to the students, I am going to open up with Hebrews 3 and 1
"Therefore holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, FIX YOUR THOUGHTS ON JESUS, the Apostle and High Priest Whom we confess".
you wanna make art? Fix your thoughts on Jesus
you wanna make widgets? Fix your thoughts on Jesus.
you see? Thats all I'm trying to say, dont fix our thoughts on Paul Cain, or Rick Joyner, or the pope, or the dalai lama, or buddha.
Fix your thoughts on Jesus.
(btw, I know you do, as does Jimmy, I'm just trying to ......to....peal away the burden on MY heart)
it is this. If we fix our thoughts on Jesus, all the other stuff is just white noise and religion...and I am so so sick of stuff of religion and the traditions and divisions of men.
In His love and Grace, neil
| 2007/1/14 13:31|
| Re: King Jimmy 2|
I did not know the genesis of your moniker and apologize.
I read you got "caught up" in this "prophetic movememt" and I thank God in all humility, that i have not got "caught up" in anything, but daily Bible reading and prayer in the strength that He has given me. I also love to read missionary biographies and autobiographies. These men and women were giants, and it hammers home the point that I am the least of the least, so when you term me "proud", it makes me smile, coz thats not me, Thank God.
also, when I see the word "prophetic" or "prophetic ministry" flipped around, I run, far far away. Somebody endowed with such a high and holy gifting would never even utter these words. When they do, its almost like they are begging God to crater them, Lord have mercy on such as these.
not proud Jimmy, and now I do like your moniker, and understand it. Go forth brother in His leading, thats my prayer today, as is this: May God bless you, richly.
| 2007/1/14 13:44|
Santa Clara, CA
Nowhere in all this is any concern brought up about the [i]matter[/i] at issue. Going back to the original post here it would be natural to bring out concerns that some of us have in response.
Full well agree with much of the sentiment you mention but it would still be ignoring the problems associated and propagated by these same ministries.
If one feels they must call out false prophets, so be it, but we are not unaware of "satan's scheme's.
Does that necessarily have to be the motive? What of the ramifications of what is being taught, what about the ... sheep?
I again appeal to Baxter.
| 2007/1/14 17:50||Profile|
| Re: Paul Cain|
I feel to post one more item just to set the record straight so no one will be have incorrect information.
In the following quote by KingJimmy it leaves the impression that the work of restoration for Paul Cain is being done by Rick Joyner:
Paul Cain going under "restoration" through Rick Joyner is like Richard Nixon receiving counseling from Bill Clinton. Both Paul Cain and Rick Joyner are both false prophets. Both have prophesied doctrines that were by all means extra-biblical, and prophesied things that simply were not true. I don't say this full of venom or bitterness in my mouth.
[color=0000CC]I just wanted to correct anyones impression that the work of restoration is being done by Rick Joyner. What Rick Joyner and others did was confront Paul Cain with his sin. It is the ministry mentioned by our moderator that is working with him toward restoration.[/color]
Cain, who recently celebrated his 77th birthday, has submitted to a restoration process under the covering of the board of RTV International Ministries in Pasadena and is currently undergoing treatment for both alcholholism and a recent diagnosis of a rare form of cancer.
Peace to all
| 2007/1/15 12:29||Profile|
According to scripture Rick Joyner, Paul Cain, Bob Jones etc are all false prophets. True, Cain needs to repent for his sins (as we all do), but the whole lot of 'em need to repent of being false prophets and teachers.
Cain's restoration to what? Restored to being a false prophet?
| 2007/1/15 12:58|
How about a brother in the Lord?
| 2007/1/15 13:00||Profile|
That brings up an interesting question... can one teach wildly gross false teachings like this group of men do and be saved?
I wont judge their hearts, thats God's job. But I do wonder if it's possible for someone to twist and rent scripture as badly as these men have and still be a follower of Christ.
| 2007/1/15 14:27|