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tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:

Stever wrote:
Quote:


The King James is from the "Received Text, the Textus Receptus, that was passed down from the Disciples.

What is superb about it is that the English language is "frozen in time" with the use of the King James. Between 1611 and 1828 the English language was quite static. Travel took a very long time, and only the rich could afford to do so. The Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of the American language is an excellent tool to use with the King James Bible.

As far as ALL the newer versions---they ALL rely on the corrupt Alexandrian text that Westcott & Hort created to produce their "revised" Translation produced in 1881. Actually, the Catholic bible is quite similar to the Westcott and Hort Translation.

God bless,

Stever

:-D



The Textus Receptus was written by Erasmus, and was not passed down from the Disciples. He used several different manuscripts, and was missing part of Revelation and had to translate it from Latin to Greek.

The TR has also been revised several times.

It is an opinion that the TR is better

As for the language being frozen in time I have read many classic works from this so-called frozen period that are in no way like the language used in the KJV. I believe that this language was actually on it’s way out in 1611.

The 1828 Webster is wonderful.

I use the KJV. The KJV is a great translation, but nothing more.



Peace be with you.

TJ


_________________
TJ

 2007/1/17 8:44Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Use the Greek, it's a language... not a translation.



I hear that a lot. I reject that. To think that God would lock up the truth of His Word in the Greek language, keeping the richness of His Word from His people of [i]any[/i] language is to mischaracterize the Lord.

My God is a miracle working God. He preserved His Word just as He promised He would throughout scripture. I personally believe He preserved it through the line that eventually became what we know as the Textus Receptus, and eventually through the translations that are based on it... whether it be English, Spanish or Chinese.

He did this so that even us common folk can understand the simple truths of scripture. He did it so people who havent had 4 years of Greek at some seminary could know the scriptures. As William Tyndale once told a Catholic priest: [b]"I will cause a boy who drives the plough to know more of the scriptures than you do!"[/b]

Whenever this topic is discussed we always get some who want to impress everyone with their book learning, and say "If you really want to understand scripture, you have to learn Greek!". That same attitude is what led the Catholic Church to refuse ANY scripture to be translated from Latin into the language of the common man. Do you know what you get when people believe you have to know Greek in order to really understand scripture? Power. Power over those you disagree with, because you can alway pull out that card and say "Do you know Greek?". During a sermon a pastor can take any passage of scripture and say "In the Greek, a better way to render this is..." ...and no one will question him. How can anyone argue with him if they havent had Greek training? He can tell you the Greek says anything he wants to, and you cant argue with him! (I'm not suggesting preachers shouldn't refer to the Greek at times, just showing how this line of thinking can be abused)

I know some on this site have studied Greek. KingJimmy has, and I respect him on that. I disagree with his position on Bible versions, but he is very knowledgable about the Greek language, and I think thats cool.

But I believe half of the people on this site who throw down the "Greek card" in this debate dont know a thing about Greek. Never studied it, cant read it... etc. They just throw "the Greek" around because they know they can shut most people up. And the people who seem to throw it around are those who are in favor of modern versions.

Here's the thing... God has preserved His Word in English... in Spanish... in French... you name it. He did this so we wouldnt have to learn dead languages in order to understand who He is, and to grasp the simple truths of scripture. I dont think there is anything wrong with studying Latin or Greek, but it is not necessary in order to have a deep loving relationship with our Savior. In fact, I believe in most cases it prevents it because many time the result is intellectual arrogance.

I personally believe the KJV is the best translation of God's Word available to the English speaking people. It is not nearly as hard to understand as people think it is. My wife was convinced it was, as was I, when we were first saved. Did we believe that because we read it and couldnt understand it? No! We believed it because we were told that it was too hard for us to understand. Years later, after studying this whole version issue and becoming convinced the KJV was the way to go... we began to read it together. Guess what! We were lied to! We understood the KJV just fine.

Krispy

 2007/1/17 9:12
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Considering ... again

I don't know...

There is still yet something troubling with all this. On the one hand it is weary to keep hearing the same old tired agenda being dragged through here in endless repetition. Some of us have this [i]must[/i] of force about everything that here is no more room for consideration at all, just a constant mandate and exertion.

Stever. You are the man. After being gone for months you have returned only to pick up where you left off. A endless stream and theme that you must force down everybody's throats, repeating the same 'conspiracy' over and over again, and that post to post, even those that don't pertain to this issue, you must inject it again and again and again. It's old, it's tired and it's wearing. Point to a old link and leave it be, this constant berating is detrimental and if anything those you may think you wish to appeal to you will only end up pushing away.

As it has been stated here before about a somewhat collective [i]preference[/i] but not [i]only[/i] when it comes to the KJV ... I can only plead one thing and it is one thing across the board and across [i]this board[/i] which, I would far more prefer to call a [i]forum[/i], the former giving off all kinds of wrong notions ...

It is this;

Honesty.

All of this 'issue' can be completely skirted and even the arguments for and against made a heap of rubble by going up and over and right on past the core of this matter. It makes absolutely no difference whatsoever what 'translation' is being used [i][b]IF[/b][/i], by what ever meaning is being derived, which is [i][b]the[/b][/i] ultimate issue, [i][b]IF[/b][/i] the heart of the matter is skirted.

Bitterness.
Pride.
Contentions.
Humility.
Division.
Lack of consideration.
High-mindedness.

It is just uncanny the warnings and admonishens, taking heed, giving place to others, pondering, changing our minds, being honest about what we do and do not know or understand. The core issues are just ran right over to capitulate everything into ... I am asking again, aloud, what darn difference does it make, if these very first principles are ignored? Having a KJV is not going to help anyone at all if all it does is ignore the very corruptions of our depravity, making this all one giant spiritual pragmatism ... It is far too often just laced with the arsenic of bitterness, it screams "[i]I don't care[/i]" and a prideful "[i]I [u]know[/u][/i]". That everything must be cleanly separated into classes and camps is honestly impossible, but that seems to make little to no difference, there are no other considerations, only a position to uphold.

Take whatever version you wish and this simple little illustration of verse's;

Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

What was it that killed these two at the inception of the church's foundations? And just what was the whole point of this great and expensive illustration put in place at this time? What was it they were not to tolerate and that we in our day in so many things have just thrown right out the window ...?

Honesty.
Dis-honesty killed them both ...

Amazing that anyone of us even lives with the way we treat this matter... of honesty.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/1/17 10:31Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
It is not nearly as hard to understand as people think it is.



This is very true! The biggest hinderance I hear people claim for the reason they refuse to study from the KJV is that it is incomprehensible. They say the same with the old hymns. Just last week my wife's brother was down from Dallas where he studies theology at Southwestern Assemblies of God University and we had a little "discussion" along this very line. My bro-in-law is a typical 19-year-old youth group leader/worship guitar player/singer. He wears the t-shirts, has all the popular Christian rock CD's, never misses a Christian fun-festival, etc. His Bible is the NIV, and he uses it at SAGU, and his banal complaint for not using the KJV is, of course: "Hey, no one speaks in 17th century English anymore! Nobody says thee and thou and hencehorth and thus. It's not practical."

I asked him if he could understand the KJV. He said he couldn't. Now, brethren, this is a 19 year-old university student who did well in high school and excelled math and history and is into old King Arthur chivalry stuff and Feudal wars and crossbows and Lord of the Rings and other goofy stuff. He has gone to Renniasance festivals and as a gag will sometimes dress like a silly Muskateer. Since he knows I disdan modern Christian "rock" music, I began to sing the chorus of what he thought was Third Day's "Amazing Love." He immediately jumped on me, "Hey, you're singing Third Day!"

"No," I smiled. "That would be a butchering Charles Wesley's hymn 'And Can it Be.'"

I took a Methodist hymnal and began to sing this glorious hymn, stanza by stanza. When I finished he proudly said, "See! I have no idea what most of those words mean." So I stopped and went word-by-word with him. I asked him if he knew what an "interest in the Saviour's blood" meant. He nodded. I asked him if he knew what "fetters" were. He said no. I said, "You've never heard of iron fetters?" He nodded, "Oh, yeah. Those are the things that go on prisoners' feet"

My point is, people today know what most 17th century words mean, but for some reason we have been dumbed-down and spoonfed and the majesty and glory of holy prose and KJV passages have been glazed over and watered down with the insipidities of pop culture and it just doesn't carry over. I know that if I were to go word-by-word in the KJV, he would understand 98% of it too. I really think it's all about lazyness and the stubborn mindset that [i]I[/i] shouldn't have to make an effort; the Word should instead be brought down to [i]my[/i] willfully-infantile reading level.

I find it remarkable that in Wesley's day common folk, illiterate peasants were converted and educated and taught to handle God's Word and the KJV was preached and nations quaked. Today we have all kinds of vapid versions catering from the pre-schooler up to Doctorate level of utmost pretention (literally hundreds of versions) and yet there is famine, famine, famine. Herein is an even more pressing issue! You who tenaciously fight tooh-and-nail for KJV superiority, what does the KJV do for [i]you?[/i] If all it does is provide a vehicle to lobby and harass NASB adherents and NIVers, you are to be sorely pitied. This is no different than being a showboat rebel without a cause. I fear that we who do this are danger of receiving more stripes on that fearful day.

Brother Paul


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2007/1/17 10:52Profile









 Re:

Here here...!

Paul, I love your post. For Christmas I gave my wife a hymnal since we recently aquired a piano in our home. I love to hear her playing that thing, and when she begins to play the old hymns it creates such an atmosphere of worship in our house. I knew most of these hymns as a child growing up. My grandparents took us kids to church now and then. But now, at 39 yrs of age, I'm actually beginning to pay attention to the words... and what awesome deep words they are! "7-11" praise & worship songs have a place, but in my opinion they are inferior to many of the old hymns that most today seem to mock, or at least ignore.

In your last paragraph you talked about those who would defend the KJV for the sake of argument. I know my own motivation for my strong stand has been questioned, and I would lying if I claimed my motives were always pure. However, when I receive an email or PM from someone on this site who either discussed or at least read my posts concerning the KJV... and they thank me for helping them to see the heart of the matter, it lets me know that God is at work. And that is what thrills my heart, and makes the rabid critizism I get worth it. Even if someone doesnt accept everything thing I believe on this, if they just tell me that they have a great appreciation for that old book because of something I said... I know that the Lord has been faithful as I have been faithful to Him.

Thats not in defense of what you wrote, Paul. Thats a simple explanation for everyone of where my heart is on this issue. It's a very dear issue with me, as God's Holy Word should be to all believers.

May we all [b]earnestly[/b] contend for it.

Krispy

 2007/1/17 11:38
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
I would lying if I claimed my motives were always pure.



Brother Krisp, none of my words were directed at anyone here specifically. They were for me! I have a nasty tendency to jump the gun and defend the KJV to the point where it becomes more about [i]me[/i] than the KJV. I don't want to be defeated in debate, or have ignorance on my part exposed in a certain area. This is nothing more than my wicked pride, the unmortified old man rearing his ugly head. See, when I am in this condition, it it better for me to close my mouth and not engage the discussion - even though I am certain the beliefs I hold to to be true. The same when it comes to the various music tastes and styles: hymns versus modern. I [i]know[/i] that hymns and the traditional, beautiful spiritual songs of our old paths (which can graciously be found here on SI) are superior in every way to the ugly, devil's music alternative played on Christian radio today, ah, but before I engage anyone to assert my beliefs, it really behooves me to check my motives and examine my heart, and if I find anyhting impure to step way and cover my mouth till my heart is right with God. Though I may win the debate with a violated heart and conscience, the ultimate loss will be of my own joy and inner witness. Brother, the last paragraph was merely a reminder for yours truly. My heart can not be trusted.

Grace and peace of Jesus Christ,

Brother Paul


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2007/1/17 12:04Profile









 Re:

Paul... as I said, I had not taken your words personally at all. It was just a good opportunity to remind people that my stance and defense of the KJV is not out of hatred, but of love to see people open their hearts to the possibility that perhaps they have been deceived into thinking the KJV is of no value today.

I, like you, have a very wicked heart as well. I long for the day when it shall beat no longer, and a new heart will beat inside of me.

Krispy

 2007/1/17 13:01
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Paul,

Thank you. Could almost regret much of the bother here, to go to such ridiculous lengths to just ask ourselves to be honest about these things ... all things. Am hesitating to offer up a link that I had mentioned earlier, reason... ? The sense that it would just become another piece of chum thrown out to be torn to shreds rather an opportunity to just look at this issue honestly ... [i]Why bother[/i]? The sense.

Quote:
Herein is an even more pressing issue! You who tenaciously fight tooh-and-nail for KJV superiority, what does the KJV do for you? If all it does is provide a vehicle to lobby and harass NASB adherents and NIVers, you are to be sorely pitied. This is no different than being a showboat rebel without a cause. I fear that we who do this are danger of receiving more stripes on that fearful day.



I appreciate everything you have said here brother and especially my sheer disgust with this corrupted heart ...


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/1/17 15:52Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

[quote
KrispyKrittr wrote:

Quote:
Use the Greek, it's a language... not a translation.


I hear that a lot. I reject that.
Krispy





Krispy, I said you should use the Greek to check out a new translation, not to just use the Greek language Bible. I like and use the KJV, that does not make it perfect. I will stop getting involved in these translation threads. I thought I was helping someone. I guess I was just part of a problem.

God bless

TJ



_________________
TJ

 2007/1/17 16:51Profile









 Re:

Quote:

crsschk wrote:
I don't know...

There is still yet something troubling with all this. On the one hand it is weary to keep hearing the same old tired agenda being dragged through here in endless repetition. Some of us have this [i]must[/i] of force about everything that here is no more room for consideration at all, just a constant mandate and exertion.

Stever. You are the man. After being gone for months you have returned only to pick up where you left off. A endless stream and theme that you must force down everybody's throats, repeating the same 'conspiracy' over and over again, and that post to post, even those that don't pertain to this issue, you must inject it again and again and again. It's old, it's tired and it's wearing. Point to a old link and leave it be, this constant berating is detrimental and if anything those you may think you wish to appeal to you will only end up pushing away.

As it has been stated here before about a somewhat collective [i]preference[/i] but not [i]only[/i] when it comes to the KJV ... I can only plead one thing and it is one thing across the board and across [i]this board[/i] which, I would far more prefer to call a [i]forum[/i], the former giving off all kinds of wrong notions ...

It is this;

Honesty.

All of this 'issue' can be completely skirted and even the arguments for and against made a heap of rubble by going up and over and right on past the core of this matter. It makes absolutely no difference whatsoever what 'translation' is being used [i][b]IF[/b][/i], by what ever meaning is being derived, which is [i][b]the[/b][/i] ultimate issue, [i][b]IF[/b][/i] the heart of the matter is skirted.

Bitterness.
Pride.
Contentions.
Humility.
Division.
Lack of consideration.
High-mindedness.

It is just uncanny the warnings and admonishens, taking heed, giving place to others, pondering, changing our minds, being honest about what we do and do not know or understand. The core issues are just ran right over to capitulate everything into ... I am asking again, aloud, what darn difference does it make, if these very first principles are ignored? Having a KJV is not going to help anyone at all if all it does is ignore the very corruptions of our depravity, making this all one giant spiritual pragmatism ... It is far too often just laced with the arsenic of bitterness, it screams "[i]I don't care[/i]" and a prideful "[i]I [u]know[/u][/i]". That everything must be cleanly separated into classes and camps is honestly impossible, but that seems to make little to no difference, there are no other considerations, only a position to uphold.

Take whatever version you wish and this simple little illustration of verse's;

Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

What was it that killed these two at the inception of the church's foundations? And just what was the whole point of this great and expensive illustration put in place at this time? What was it they were not to tolerate and that we in our day in so many things have just thrown right out the window ...?

Honesty.
Dis-honesty killed them both ...

Amazing that anyone of us even lives with the way we treat this matter... of honesty.



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


I am sorry that you feel that way about my position on the King James Bible. My position has nothing to do with:

Bitterness.
Pride.
Contentions
Division.
Lack of consideration.
High-mindedness.
Dishonesty.

My position has to do with the Church, and what has happened to it in the past 50 years. It used to be strong, and now it is weak. The Mega Churches are taking over, preparing the way for the false church and the false prophet during the tribulation.

I believe that the reason these Chrurches have taken over is that Christians no longer study or understand doctrine. The Doctrine that is presented clearly in the King James has been watered down to the point that doctrine is no longer studied or understood, and has now become unimportant, ESPECIALLY in the Mega Church.

I recently saw a comprehensive 3 hour video by Dr. Robert E. Klenck that goes into detail about the mega churches, and their disdain for sound doctrine. The links below provide a detailed explanation of the video.

http://www.agp-internet.com/special/cgm/00000097b50c5a001/00000097b5117f921.htm

http://www.authorityresearch.com/

How to order the video:
http://www.swrc.com/offers/internet_0205.htm

Many times I feel like a voice crying in the wilderness on this issue. That is probably because I have seen this change with my own eyes and witnessed the fact that people today, when they hold up their Bible, are no longer certain that they have the very words of God in their hands.

That is the reason for my passion on this issue, and nothing more. Souls are perishing because of the lack of SOUND DOCTRINE.



God bless,

Steve
:-D

P.S. No matter how often this fact is proven (that sound doctrine is watered down and neutered in the newer versions) there are those who consider this proof to be nothing more than "division in the body of Christ". I would hope that all of you go to the websites above and study the Church growth movement for yourselves.

[b][color=FF3300]The one thing that is consistent in all of the mega churches is using multi-versions of the newer translations, and almost never using the King James. What happens is that church members no longer bring Bibles to Church, because the Bible text is now shown on the flat screen televisions throughout the Church, and it is impossible to bring 10 translations of the Bible to Church to read from the Scripture that is preached in one sermon.[/color][/b]

 2007/1/17 22:00





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